Russia the worst nation so far

[Cortez]

No economy, terrible military, and if you want to get men in the field you gonna go in deficit. To get good eco you have to spend mana so you will get behind ideas and tech. In the end you get colonized by Ming or any Western power. GG.

[Kapika96]

Try playing as Ottomans, Castile etc. until you learn the game better.

Once you know what you're doing Muscovy are crazy strong. The starting economy is poor, yes. But there's lots of land that can be developed easily, and you can funnel trade into your lands from Asia. Plus you can also push down and grab Constantinople from the Ottomans later too.

You won't get behind on ideas or tech once you know how to keep up on institutions. Develop provinces at the right time (ie. when an institution you don't have is available and there's currently a tech penalty for the next tech, or you have literally nothing else to spend them on) and focus on developing a core set of linked provinces. Probably around Moscow itself is best, focus on cheapest to develop (eg. grasslands) and high value trade goods, and also try to develop provinces in a chain so new institutions flow through them easily.

Ming suck, especially in AI hands, and by the time you reach over that far you should be able to wipe the floor with them pretty easily. You should too, then turn all of China into trade companies and become super rich. The only annoying part about fighting Ming is having to move troops back and forward between Europe and Asia, but once you get big enough you'll have enough troops that you can just fight with half of them and leave the other half on the other side.

Poland and Ottomans are your only real threats in Europe. Ottomans are tough, but absolutely beatable. Poland can quite easily be contained, and if anything ever goes wrong with their PU jump on the opportunity to invade Lithuania without them being involved. Although best case scenario you start without Poland as a rival, you then ally them and get them to help you fight Denmark and the Ottos. You could beat them both by yourself, but if you can make it easier, why not?

[Cortez]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Try playing as Ottomans, Castile etc. until you learn the game better.

Once you know what you're doing Muscovy are crazy strong. The starting economy is poor, yes. But there's lots of land that can be developed easily, and you can funnel trade into your lands from Asia. Plus you can also push down and grab Constantinople from the Ottomans later too.

You won't get behind on ideas or tech once you know how to keep up on institutions. Develop provinces at the right time (ie. when an institution you don't have is available and there's currently a tech penalty for the next tech, or you have literally nothing else to spend them on) and focus on developing a core set of linked provinces. Probably around Moscow itself is best, focus on cheapest to develop (eg. grasslands) and high value trade goods, and also try to develop provinces in a chain so new institutions flow through them easily.

Ming suck, especially in AI hands, and by the time you reach over that far you should be able to wipe the floor with them pretty easily. You should too, then turn all of China into trade companies and become super rich. The only annoying part about fighting Ming is having to move troops back and forward between Europe and Asia, but once you get big enough you'll have enough troops that you can just fight with half of them and leave the other half on the other side.

Poland and Ottomans are your only real threats in Europe. Ottomans are tough, but absolutely beatable. Poland can quite easily be contained, and if anything ever goes wrong with their PU jump on the opportunity to invade Lithuania without them being involved. Although best case scenario you start without Poland as a rival, you then ally them and get them to help you fight Denmark and the Ottos. You could beat them both by yourself, but if you can make it easier, why not?

bruh you wrote so much what I summarised. Yes you can develop but in turn you lose technologies. As Ottomans or Castile you don't...

[bri]

Once you know what you're doing Muscovy are crazy strong.

Not entirely true. Yes, they have some things going for them but there are numerous other nations far stronger than them plus their starting situation is far from ideal. If Novgorod had anything like a chance to get decent allies it would be a nightmare level start rather than just somewhat challenging and that's before the parade of nerfs announced in the latest dev diary land.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by Kuma:

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Try playing as Ottomans, Castile etc. until you learn the game better.

Once you know what you're doing Muscovy are crazy strong. The starting economy is poor, yes. But there's lots of land that can be developed easily, and you can funnel trade into your lands from Asia. Plus you can also push down and grab Constantinople from the Ottomans later too.

You won't get behind on ideas or tech once you know how to keep up on institutions. Develop provinces at the right time (ie. when an institution you don't have is available and there's currently a tech penalty for the next tech, or you have literally nothing else to spend them on) and focus on developing a core set of linked provinces. Probably around Moscow itself is best, focus on cheapest to develop (eg. grasslands) and high value trade goods, and also try to develop provinces in a chain so new institutions flow through them easily.

Ming suck, especially in AI hands, and by the time you reach over that far you should be able to wipe the floor with them pretty easily. You should too, then turn all of China into trade companies and become super rich. The only annoying part about fighting Ming is having to move troops back and forward between Europe and Asia, but once you get big enough you'll have enough troops that you can just fight with half of them and leave the other half on the other side.

Poland and Ottomans are your only real threats in Europe. Ottomans are tough, but absolutely beatable. Poland can quite easily be contained, and if anything ever goes wrong with their PU jump on the opportunity to invade Lithuania without them being involved. Although best case scenario you start without Poland as a rival, you then ally them and get them to help you fight Denmark and the Ottos. You could beat them both by yourself, but if you can make it easier, why not?

bruh you wrote so much what I summarised. Yes you can develop but in turn you lose technologies. As Ottomans or Castile you don't...

Knowing how and when to develop for institutions is part of being good at the game. You shouldn't really fall behind on tech as any country in Europe, Africa or Asia.

[Kapika96]

Originally posted by bri:

Once you know what you're doing Muscovy are crazy strong.

Not entirely true. Yes, they have some things going for them but there are numerous other nations far stronger than them plus their starting situation is far from ideal. If Novgorod had anything like a chance to get decent allies it would be a nightmare level start rather than just somewhat challenging and that's before the parade of nerfs announced in the latest dev diary land.

They're not Ottomans or Castile level strong. But in player hands I'd say they're about the same level as France. Easier too if Poland reject the Lithuania PU.

The upcoming changes will make them harder for sure. Potentially only early game nerfs though. They look as if they could end up stronger than they currently are mid to late game, it'll just be a bit harder to get them to full strength than it is now.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Originally posted by bri:

Not entirely true. Yes, they have some things going for them but there are numerous other nations far stronger than them plus their starting situation is far from ideal. If Novgorod had anything like a chance to get decent allies it would be a nightmare level start rather than just somewhat challenging and that's before the parade of nerfs announced in the latest dev diary land.

They're not Ottomans or Castile level strong. But in player hands I'd say they're about the same level as France.

I wouldn't. France can become Emperor of the HRE very early on, and early Emperor means vassal swarm. It's far more difficult for Russia to do so. France can also get the full Burgundian inheritance a significant percentage of the time, and they can and should take over every province of the game's best trade node (the English Channel) right out of the gate.

If I'm trying to absolutely min/max either country, France crushes Russia.

[bri]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

They're not Ottomans or Castile level strong. But in player hands I'd say they're about the same level as France. Easier too if Poland reject the Lithuania PU.

Not even close for reasons already explained. Muscovy->Russia is probably the most over-rated tag in the game in terms of general opinion. People see the big green blob on the map and think "oooh, scary" when in reality it is mostly low dev crap in Siberia the ai foolishly wasted diplo mp to settle with an army overly comprised of infantry with no real combat bonuses. A complete paper tiger even moreso than the other scary green blob (at least the Ottomans have discipline).

As for the Lithuania thing, for one it's fairly rare, for another it leaves the nightmare scenario of a Novgorod-Lithuania alliance leaving you exactly nowhere to expand without risking a devastating multi-front dogpile happening.

There are reasons the PLC and Sweden are regularly beating Muscovy/Russia up in the current patch and with the incoming nerfs that will only get worse. Unless other things changed I'll be surprised to see it survive over 50% of the time without player intervention.

[Cortez]

Exactly russia has barely deved land

Originally posted by bri:

Originally posted by Kapika96:

They're not Ottomans or Castile level strong. But in player hands I'd say they're about the same level as France. Easier too if Poland reject the Lithuania PU.

Not even close for reasons already explained. Muscovy->Russia is probably the most over-rated tag in the game in terms of general opinion. People see the big green blob on the map and think "oooh, scary" when in reality it is mostly low dev crap in Siberia the ai foolishly wasted diplo mp to settle with an army overly comprised of infantry with no real combat bonuses. A complete paper tiger even moreso than the other scary green blob (at least the Ottomans have discipline).

As for the Lithuania thing, for one it's fairly rare, for another it leaves the nightmare scenario of a Novgorod-Lithuania alliance leaving you exactly nowhere to expand without risking a devastating multi-front dogpile happening.

There are reasons the PLC and Sweden are regularly beating Muscovy/Russia up in the current patch and with the incoming nerfs that will only get worse. Unless other things changed I'll be surprised to see it survive over 50% of the time without player intervention.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Kuma:

Exactly russia has barely deved land

True, but that shouldn't stop you as a player. Ignore the crap to your east and sprint for Persia and India. Both are incredibly rich, and once you take them over, nothing can stop you.

Russia is harder than many other starting nations, but they can still do well in player hands. The AI? Not so much.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Kuma:

o get good eco you have to spend mana so you will get behind ideas and tech.

I want to focus on this part of your OP. In short, no. You shouldn't spend mana on development. Developing provinces (with a couple exceptions I will mention in a bit) is wildly inefficient. It is always cheaper to conquer development, and that's what you should do. Push southeast into Persia and India as fast as you can, set up TCs everywhere, and send their trade home.

There are two exceptions to the "don't develop your own provinces" rule:

1) A mission or estate agenda requires it
2) To force institutions to appear in your nation

Aside from that, don't do it. Use Admin mana to core conquests. Use Diplo mana to integrate vassals and hire admirals. Use Military mana to hire generals. And, of course, tech and ideas.

Do this and you'll never fall behind on tech and you will also become the #1 great power, with any nation.

[Cortez]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Originally posted by Kuma:

o get good eco you have to spend mana so you will get behind ideas and tech.

I want to focus on this part of your OP. In short, no. You shouldn't spend mana on development. Developing provinces (with a couple exceptions I will mention in a bit) is wildly inefficient. It is always cheaper to conquer development, and that's what you should do. Push southeast into Persia and India as fast as you can, set up TCs everywhere, and send their trade home.

There are two exceptions to the "don't develop your own provinces" rule:

1) A mission or estate agenda requires it
2) To force institutions to appear in your nation

Aside from that, don't do it. Use Admin mana to core conquests. Use Diplo mana to integrate vassals and hire admirals. Use Military mana to hire generals. And, of course, tech and ideas.

Do this and you'll never fall behind on tech and you will also become the #1 great power, with any nation.

Even me not being aggressive, having some puppets, I lack government mana to keep it under. So how would I get persia+india?

[ChaffyExpert]

Considering Russia is a major European nation and necessary for balance, it shouldn't be so weak. Sure, under player hands it can be strong, but this means if the player plays literally any other nation, there is massive imbalance in East European politics.

[Marquoz]

Originally posted by Kuma:

Even me not being aggressive, having some puppets, I lack government mana to keep it under. So how would I get persia+india?

First you conquer everything between you and Persia+India. Then you conquer Persia+India. I've done it many times as Russia.

[Cortez]

Originally posted by Emperor Palpatinate:

Considering Russia is a major European nation and necessary for balance, it shouldn't be so weak. Sure, under player hands it can be strong, but this means if the player plays literally any other nation, there is massive imbalance in East European politics.

To me Russia just seems like Greece economy but just bigger country. Weak economy, and when they go to war they lose all their money in their budget

[Cortez]

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Originally posted by Kuma:

Even me not being aggressive, having some puppets, I lack government mana to keep it under. So how would I get persia+india?

First you conquer everything between you and Persia+India. Then you conquer Persia+India. I've done it many times as Russia.

Yeah ok but then I would be over government limit