Great Britain or Netherlands? Which do you prefer or think is better?

[Corvus_Alt1]

Frankly, I like the Dutch more because of their history, culture and Amsterdam, though I feel compelled to think that Great Britain is objectively better. While it is true that the Netherlands can very easily become embarrassingly rich and is poised to rule over the most well developed region in Europe, Britain has very defensible geography and a spectacular combination of ideas that grant it both the strongest navy in the world and a strong economic base that can grow to match the Low Countries. To top it off, Britain's historical events provide stronger bonuses than the Netherlands can obtain.

Sigh, sometimes I really wish Paradox would buff the Netherlands a little bit, maybe swap out infantry combat ability with discipline, or replace shipbuilding time with navy tradition. Hopefully they'll add something in Mare Nostrum.

But anyway, what do you think?

[Gasseldine]

They're both fun and intresting to play with, however due to my nationality and desire to emulate their success I have to go with Britain.

[mcv]

Historically it makes sense for Britain to be stronger. The Dutch Republic did eventually lose their dominance, and mostly to Britain.

[Esperanza]

I think this depends when you start. If you're starting early on I'd recommend Britain if you want to take the easy route, as it is much easier to form than the Netherlands, especially in 1444. If you are starting in 1444, play with England, take over Scotland, let your admin tech grow to level 10, then you should be able to form England.

In 1444, trying to form the Netherlands will be difficult. If you're an independent nation you would have to conquer Holland and Breda, which is part of Brabant, both of which are under a Personal Union under Burgundy, along with the 3 provinces not belonging to a Burgundian subject (Utrecht, Gelre and Friesland) if you're looking for an achievement.

Otherwise, you can play as Burgundy, and you can annex your subjects with a bit of patience. However, even then you are faced with having to battle against the HRE Emperor, unless you can diplomatically vassalize those who control the land (you'd probably need to gather outside power for that.)

If you start a little later on, the choice is yours. Historically, Britain did emerge as the most powerful, and even boasted the largest Empire in the world. With the Netherlands, you will find yourself at war against Spain if you start with the Netherlands on the 1581 bookmark or in the eighty or so years following.

My verdict:
If you are looking to get the job done quickly, go for Britain. If you want a greater challenge, then go for the Netherlands.

I haven't done this, but I have based my opinion on my game experience on EU4 with both Britain and the Netherlands, or a nation which can form Britain or the Netherlands.

[Crocodylus Pontifex]

Startes as brabant, formed the netherlands, could theoretically form great britain:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=641351950

(English is the most common culture in my empire so if i were to change my capital to let's say london and changed my primary culture I could reform england and subsequently form GB.)

So my answer has to be:

Why not both? Why not Zoidberg?

[ChalkStorm]

the Dutch Republic is OP as ♥♥♥♥ and about to be nerfed to the ground, so definitely The Netherlands.

[⛧ Morslyte ⛧]

I hate the Dutch, so well, Britain all the way.

[CondorDrake]

I loved to play England when the game still had the 100 years war thing with france, but now it isn't that much fun anymore. You get dragged into a series of hopeless wars against France / Austria for the french cores and got other problems like War of the Roses etc. - so I'd probably rather vote for a game to form the Netherlands.

[Marcos_DS]

Originally posted by Equinox:

I loved to play England when the game still had the 100 years war thing with france, but now it isn't that much fun anymore. You get dragged into a series of hopeless wars against France / Austria for the french cores and got other problems like War of the Roses etc. - so I'd probably rather vote for a game to form the Netherlands.

Actually, England is now far easier since you can form alliances before the war with france. An Alliance with Aragon & Austria will make the war with france so much easier. Even better, as soon as France starts to loose, bugrundy will often jump in and weaken the French even more.

If you cannot gather enough allies for the war with france, just declare war on Scotland instead - they are guaranteed by France, but you will conquer the war goal - so just don't fight france on the continent, keep them off the island with your navy and make a high % peace deal with Scotland, this will result with a long truce to gather allies during which your french holdings are safe.

[Gonio]

Originally posted by ChalkStorm:

the Dutch Republic is OP as ♥♥♥♥ and about to be nerfed to the ground, so definitely The Netherlands.

Lol. If you think they are op, any nation is op :). Btw, where do you get that they will be nerfed?

Anyway. Guess England is best all the time. Better ideas, better defendable, exist @ 1444, relative big @ start. So if you play exactly as good with England as you would play forming the Netherlands, England always has a headstart = better end result.

Not that Netherlands is bad or so. Did WC with them. Doing it as England would be far more easier though :)

[Turtler]

Main experience I have playing with the Dutch is in the Eight Years' War timestamp, because for some reason there's something that appeals to me about playing the dogged resistance fighter underdogs. Though I DO wish they made it possible to form the fully united Netherlands (all the Provinces) if you won, which is basically impossible because of province costs in vanilla.

That said, I'd probably say I play Britain more largely because it is so much easier to form. Give it a good couple decades if you're lucky and you can do marvels. Then- especially if you're England- if y ou can win the H undred Years' and annex France you basically are on the fast track to dominating the game.

It's a lot harder to actually survive as a Medieval Dutch minor, let alone do well enough to form the Netherlands. In addition to fratricidal infighting, you have a whole bunch of scary blobs. Imperial/Burgundian Blobs, French Blob, and if you're particularly unlucky England blob or even Scandinavian blob.

Though in many cases that is part of the desire.

[Welcome to Idiocracy 2023]

Its easier to expand as England into the Low Countries as vice versa.
You can cut off the frenchies from one of the best trade notes early and with the additional manpower and forcelimit from this provinces its easy to crush them with Austria, Portugal and Castille/Aragon being allied.

[Rabob]

Why not play England and have Netherlands as vassal?

No more 30k rebel events...

Also since the area remains your cores you can core it back cheaply afterwards :D

Vassalize it once it gets spawned and give the rest of the cores and then wait it out.

[Corvus_Alt1]

Well, this is getting some traction. Truth be told, I have played as both nations successfully in the past, and have done pretty well as both England and Holland. I'm just torn over which maritime power I'd like to play as more for Mare Nostrum. I loved playing as the Dutch uniter of the entire Benelux region, but I find myself feeling a little underhelmed by their national ideas and historical events when compared to Britain. As I said, if Paradox swapped the Dutch's shipbuilding time for yearly naval tradition, I'd probably pick the Netherlands every time. Then again, I'd probably still be feeling jealous of Britain's 5% discipline, which I'll always consider inherently superior to 10% infantry combat ability.

[Corvus_Alt1]

Originally posted by Rabob:

Why not play England and have Netherlands as vassal?

No more 30k rebel events...

Also since the area remains your cores you can core it back cheaply afterwards :D

Vassalize it once it gets spawned and give the rest of the cores and then wait it out.

You know, I've been thinking about that, but I always get worried about Amsterdam not getting the development and tax province modifiers, or the possibility of losing those modifiers the moment I annex them. I want to see Amsterdam and London become the twin sister cities around which the world revolves, and that is much harder to do if Holland has higher development costs.