Quantity as Prussia?

[Badpak]

So i'm playing as Brandenburg and my buddy is playing as France. The year is 1495, going to form Prussia. Already vassalised TO and conquered Pomerenia+some of the little states on the west of Brandenburg. My first idea is diplomatic, second religious and now i want to get a military idea. I'm thinking of taking quantity because i'm constantly out of manpower (already fought a coalition war against basically all my neighbours and i expect many more to come). It's just that the internet is giving me conflicting advice on what to take. Anyone got any advice? I'm planning on taking more military ideas as i'm Prussia and i dont want to colonise.

TL:DR Should i get quantity as Prussia's first military idea?

[Kagemin]

I don't like Quantity as a first military idea, usually better troops make more of a difference than more troops, even if that's probably less of an issue as Prussia. You still should consider getting (more) mercenaries if you have manpower problems.

In my recent campaigns I've almost always been going with Aristocracy as my first military idea, it helps a lot with various things.
Since Prussia gets a big discipline bonus (even if it's rather late) getting Offensive and Quality to stack as much discipline as possible is a good option too.

[Badpak]

Thanks for the quick reply!
The thing is tough, i don't have the money to fund mercenaries and the first two quantity ideas (+50% manpower and +20% manpower recovery) look really appealing to me, my manpower has been at 0 for the last 20 years and i don't expect it to change soon (already build armory's and training fields everywhere but i simply can't keep up). I will probably get quality and offensive later as well, plan on taking a lot of military ideas.

[John Fish]

For my first miltary idea I almost always take either Offensive or Quantity. Quantity is more useful if you already have a good economy, and offensive is better if you don't (yet). If you're constantly at war I'd recommend Offensive, since their leader bonuses will be useful in any war whereas levée an masse needs some peace time to start working.

[Navarre]

Quantity is pretty damn good in my book. When are you in trouble in a war? When you run out of manpower. And no matter how good your troops are, you'll take losses. Prussia national ideas are already really good for military quality, but their manpower is a bit on the low side at first and you're surrounded by potential enemies with lots of manpower, so quantity really helps. And that +50% force limit you get when you complete the group is not to be forgotten or underestimated, it really makes a difference.

I took it as my first military idea group in my current game as Brandenburg and I'm happy with my choice, it allowed me to blob into Prussia and Germany while fending off Sweden, Russia, Lithuania and coalitions. Second military choice was Offensive, and I'm pretty much invincible right now, at least in one on one versus anybody, including France.

TL/DR: hell yeah!

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

Offensive often covers most of what quantity does. And a strong Prussia will have such a huge income that forcelimit won't be much of an issue.

[Navarre]

Force limit isn't. Manpower is. Offensive gives you +20% force limit but nothing about manpower.

When you have to fight a combination of Russia, Lithuania, Sweden, France or the Ottomans, it gets down quickly. If you're elected Emperor, you'll have to go at war against strong opponents a lot, and your manpower is the limiting factor. You can't really afford to let it replenish between each war at your leisure.

That extra pip for generals and 5% discipline from Offensive is good, but it won't save your butt in your third war in a row, even if you're Prussia and have a national +25% manpower. Having +50% manpower and +20% manpower replenishment speed can. At least it' been my experience so far.

[Honoured Bot]

i would get defensive as at some point you are going to run into someone who would really screw you (ie russia) or is at least a match (ottomans). Defensive gives you a great morale bonus as well as giving enemies more attrition and longer seige times and you less attrition. This means manpower is not lost as fast and if anybody invades you just sit tight and wait for their manpower to get really low before you attack. did this to my coalition (whilst playing as Brandenburg them Prussia then Germany.

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

Russia is no match for Prussia, at all. They tend to send stacks with way too much artillery, and a Prussia with strong military ideas will absolutely annhilate a twice as big Russian stack.

[Surimi]

Quantity is actually pretty cool with Prussia because your national ideas already supply the quality! That said, I would recommend picking up innovative and defensive in whatever order you feel like. With those two ideas and prussian national ideas, you will basically never drop below 100 army tradtion. That's +20% morale (+35% with military drill, also in the defensive tree), +10% manpower/morale recovery and to cap it off all your generals will be titanic gods of battle. Considering that's two ideas in trees which are full of good ideas, I think it's pretty much a no brainer.

True, you really need both to get the full benefit, but either one on its own will certainly help.

[Honoured Bot]

Not anymore as russia just colanises Prussia has to conquer and Vast coalitions will halt that after the second war. And russia get bigger so has 300k and i had 100k troops as prussia. Then France left my coaliton so gg HRE! But seriously When France and Russia where in my coalition the only thing that saved me was defensive as i could peace out france quickly as they lost their man power and i just came in and crushed their amies and they always excepted peace but russia hurt me... Untill i allied them.... Now we crush every one but anyway this is all that i managed due to the crippling coalitons http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=300797453

Originally posted by Holstein-Gottorp Romanov:

Russia is no match for Prussia, at all. They tend to send stacks with way too much artillery, and a Prussia with strong military ideas will absolutely annhilate a twice as big Russian stack.

[Navarre]

Originally posted by PF Corburlo:

i would get defensive as at some point you are going to run into someone who would really screw you (ie russia) or is at least a match (ottomans). Defensive gives you a great morale bonus as well as giving enemies more attrition and longer seige times and you less attrition. This means manpower is not lost as fast and if anybody invades you just sit tight and wait for their manpower to get really low before you attack. did this to my coalition (whilst playing as Brandenburg them Prussia then Germany.

Maybe that's just me, but I never "sit tight" and let people siege my land though. Having my land looted and occuped is a big no-no unless I can't do otherwise, so I always go for proactive military ideas first. Besides, usually I'm the one doing the attacking and sieging, because blob. I take Defensive only once I've completed at least Offensive, and Quantity if I'm threatened by bigger players.

Besides, as Prussia you already get bonus to yearly traditions and morale, so that can wait.

Originally posted by Holstein-Gottorp Romanov:

Russia is no match for Prussia, at all. They tend to send stacks with way too much artillery, and a Prussia with strong military ideas will absolutely annhilate a twice as big Russian stack.

No country on its own is a threat for a well managed Prussia, honestly. Well, except France at first, maybe. It's the succession of wars in a short time or the alliances you have to be concerned about. When you're at war with Sweden, Russia and Lithuania and suddenly you get called against France or whoever decides to take a chunk out of the HRE, and then there's a war against the Ottomans, your manpower suffers. Of course you can supplement with mercenaries, but why risk running out of MP when you can avoid it? Not to mention the ever present threat of a Peasant War.

I'm assuming a Prussian player wants to become Emperor, though. If you fight only the OPM around you and once in a while a big country, manpower isn't that important.

[WhiskeyWerewolf]

Also, as Prussia, with the right ideas and buildings, you can stay at 100 tradition without any decay. So you get great generals most of the time.

[ShadoWwolF]

defensive ideas stacks with prussia national ideas really well because of the army tradition. keeping army tradition high will give you the best generals in the world and make battles much easier

anything that gives extra discipline will stack well also

in my Prussia game i had quality, offensive, and defensive and i could easily defeat any of the other major nations

6/6 generals and 140% discipline made up for having less manpower than russia or france

[ArcanisCz]

I went to Quantity as first military idea when playing Prussia (in that time i was only Teutonic Order) and it was not so much difference. Either i had manpower problems, in which manpower boost from Quantity was insignificant, or i had so much men for decades, i could throw them to the sea in thousands...

So when i would playing Prussia now, i will probably go for defensive as first.

[Badpak]

Thanks for all the comments guys!
I will take quantity for sure now. After that i'll take defensive and innovative for the army tradition, but first i need to secure my manpower. It's not that i'm planning on becoming emporer but i will have a lot of coalition wars against me so i guess quantity is a nice early game military idea.