Renaissance in Osman Empire? Don't make me laugh!

[Aneldarx]

What were developers thinking about making some muslim counties more receptive to Renaissance than European ones? Osman Empire embraces Renaissance earlier than Hungary, Portugal and Spain. Historical nonsense which elliminates any desire to continue the game. To be candid, Renaissance couldn't be spread in muslim counties at all as these are incompatible ideologies.
What do you think about it? Or I am only one who can't bear with historical absurds?

[Kitten Food]

Actually, and factually, you are the one who is spouting historical "absurds".

Facts are, the Ottoman Empire facilitated in many of the exchange of ideas happening in the Mediterranean during the time. Greece and Italy were *actually* catching up to advances that were coming from the Muslim region, which had generally been more scientifically advanced than Europe.

The Renaissance was more than just an "Italian" thing and (shock) included more than Europe. Another fact (I mean, who knew facts existed? I know you dont!) is that this gradual spread of ideas didn't even make it to most of Europe for over a century!

OMG, the absurdity of it all!

I hope that doesn't tarnish your video-game, viking "strong", fantasy world view of real history.

I mean...education...rough.

[The_Dead_Artist]

I'd read about the "Islamic Golden Age" if I were you. The Muslim nations were leading the world in science, mathmatics and philosophy for 400 years prior to the Renaissance.

[Surimi]

Originally posted by The_Dead_Artist:

I'd read about the "Islamic Golden Age" if I were you. The Muslim nations were leading the world in science, mathmatics and philosophy for 400 years prior to the Renaissance.

To be fair, the Islamic golden age ended with the fall of Baghdad to the Mongols, a while before EU4 begins.

But yeah, the early period of EU4's timeline is the historical high point of the Ottoman Empire, both technologically, culturally and militarily. Frankly, if we're going by real history they shouldn't even need the renaissance, as they rule constantinople (the greatest repository of classical learning in the world, and arguably the reason why the renaissance happened at all) and have access to the centuries old arabic translations of and commentaries on ancient Greek texts which were only beginning to circulate in Western Europe at the time.

Given that you've described Islam and the renaissance as "ideologies" though, I probably shouldn't expect much.

[Fellini_Fiend]

Yeah someone should take a college level history class. You'd learn that the Ottomans as well as other Muslim nations were ahead of time compared to Christian Europeans during that period in science and mathematics. It's literally the reason why a so-called "Renaissance" happened in the first place. The Muslims were studying the classic works of Ancient Greece while the rest of Europe was being azz backwards.

[Damedius]

I learned today from PC video gamers that the muslims started and are actually responsible for the Renaissance.

Poltical Correctness rewriting history for feels with a heavy dose of snark.

[mischa.zehnbauer]

This isn't so much about "rewriting history" or "political correctness" as it is about the complexity of historical processes. You see, scientific process in history is seldom as easy as civ-style "italy discovered the rennaisance".
I wouldn't sign that the ottoman empire started or caused the rennaisance, as that is a bold statement indeed. "Ottoman rennaissance" is probably a bit...well, let's call it difficult, as the ideas did indeed spread mostly from northern italy and "european" (for a lack of a more precise term due to space and motivation) thinkers surely add those original thoughts, art and inventions that characterize the epoche.

However, ignoring the influence of arabic thoughts on said events simply labels you as ignorant.

One important thing to remember is that greece, nowadays acknowledged as "european", had far closer ties to the arabic world than towards middle europe for most of its history. The rennaissance understood as a rediscovering of ancient greek and latin literature was therefore heavily influenced by ideas and concepts that originated in muslim countries. Different Muslim countries btw. as the idea of a "Muslim world" vs. the "western" or "christian world" is, despite several hundred years of war and crusades, a concept that wasn't really established until much later.

So, as I said, it might not be the best idea that the rennaissance happens in Byzanz. However, it isn't that far-fetched as you might think. Otherwise, please keep your hatred and modern-day prejudices to yourself and pick up a history book (or at least consult wikipedia).

[Welcome to Idiocracy 2023]

Muslims had stolen the hellenic-byzantine technological superiority after they had conquered them. The decline came pretty quick after this. You can only plunder a corpse a single time.

Many technologies of that time are lost today.
The correct recipe for Greek Fire for example is lost forever.

Then we have the funny copycats they have made.
The new name for Ouzu is Raki or Gyros is now called Kebab.

Not to forget that it was a hungarian traitor who made the cannons to conquer the Eastern Roman capital. Mercenaries of the crusaders have looted the city, killed countless people and destroyed most walls a few years before but why should the kebab propaganda care about such an important fact?

[Miles]

Originally posted by Merkel - Europe's worst fascist:

Muslims had stolen the hellenic-byzantine technological superiority after they had conquered them. The decline came pretty quick after this. You can only plunder a corpse a single time.

Its just not true.

[Fellini_Fiend]

Yeah historically speaking if you want to talk about lands and relics being stolen via conquest well, everybody is to blame. Everyone conquered everyone at some point so it's probably not fair to say they stole them.

[Shore]

The 'Muslim golden age' ended with Genghis Khan. Stop trying to prject your own european self loathing on other people using warped facts. The fact that the ottomans and mamluks get tech faster than some european countries is attributed to their development base in game. It's a large power and gets bonuses for it.

It can be explained in game, if you have a problem with it, then complain that anatolia has too much development in game, not "because they are muslim" because that's just troll bait.

[Speckjaeger]

Originally posted by Aneldarx:

To be candid, Renaissance couldn't be spread in muslim counties at all as these are incompatible ideologies.
What do you think about it? Or I am only one who can't bear with historical absurds?

To be frank, you're not acquainted enough with the Renaissance or even what an ideology is at present.

Allocate yourself plenty of time for homework on the subjects and get busy expanding your understanding and perception. Its the perfect remedy for mis-guided pre-conceptions.

[Aneldarx]

Originally posted by Fellini_Fiend87:

Yeah someone should take a college level history class.

So why you don't take it? Maybe then you wouldn't mix Middle Ages with New Time ;) Yes, you're right saying that muslim countries got access to antique origins before Europeans. Mathematics and medicine came to Europe from Easter World, that's true. But it was in Middle Ages and Renessaince breakthrough let Europeans go further and overcome Antiques and that's how New Age had begun.Meanwhile muslim world just recepted some things from Antiques and hadn't go further.
Could you name any muslim sientist or artist of Michelangelo's level who made compareble impact on human's culture? And maybe you could name any example of secular muslim authors of early Renaissanse like Boccaccio, Dante or Chaucer? Golden age of eastern poetry traditionally ties with Middle Ages and there weren't a quality jump in New Time as opposed to European culture, art and science.
The Renaissanse institution should illustrate that quality jump which hadn't happenned outside of Europe.

[Kelldath]

Nobody has raised the point that one of the "advantages" of the institutions gameplay-wise is precisely to allow for such ahistoric developments to happen and bring some more flavor to the game.

[Speckjaeger]

Originally posted by Aneldarx:

Originally posted by Fellini_Fiend87:

Yeah someone should take a college level history class.

The Renaissanse institution should illustrate that quality jump which hadn't happenned outside of Europe.

The Ottoman, Safavid and Mughals, for example, all sponsored artisans to create literature, art and architecture that would be the envy of any budding European Renaissance princeling.

To consider the developments of stated time in polemic and binary terms is to ignore the diversity of both Muslim and Christain states, their economics, culture, enemies and friends. There was then, as now, no actual hemogenous Christian or Muslim worlds.

Thinking about it constructively though, perhaps a more pertinent institution would be Merchant Banking. Its adoption and evolution in Italian city states and subsequent spread around the Med, gradually finding its way North to areas such as the Netherlands, was far more important as an underpinning of Western European states'(concurrent with New World discoveries and explotation) economic successes and the increasing power shifts in their favour.

It is there that the importance of Michelangelo emerges from its seclusion in hallowed halls such as the Vatican, as part of a "cultural" lexicon worn by conquerors defining "human culture".

[Calico-Jack]

Originally posted by Kelldath:

Nobody has raised the point that one of the "advantages" of the institutions gameplay-wise is precisely to allow for such ahistoric developments to happen and bring some more flavor to the game.

I agree.

I think "institutions" is closer to how cultural ideas actually spread - prior to this as Ottoman you eitther had capture and to hold Prague or Vienna or fall so far behind in tech you could then "Westernise" whch was basically treated like a religious civil war. But the game conceptually followed the idea that Europe was creator of all culture -ie the Ottomans got better tech because they captured a European city.

It's less about conquest and more about procimity and contact and the flow of ideas was 2 way.


This article is fascinaring both in the suprising place coffee held in the Arab world and its effects outside and how cultural ideas can spread by osmosis-

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22190802