So why is the Western part of Anatolia Turkish instead of Greek?

[volbound1700]

For a game that prides itself on history, it is interesting that none of the provinces in Anatolia are Greek even though these regions were very recently part of the Byzantine Empire and had just been conquered by the Turks. Most of these regions were still primarily populated by Orthodox Greeks at this time in history.

[AC Denton]

1) The Byzantine Empire had been still fighting in that region for hundreds of years.
2) By 1270-1280 the Byzantine Empire just under half of Anatolia and shrunk to nothing after that.
3) A 174 year gap between limited Byzatine occupation of Anatolia and the start of the game. That's multiple generations. Most of Anatolia was controlled by many Turkish Bayliks for a long time while they fought each other and the Byzantine Empire. The Empire didn't have a strong hold over the region.
4) Cultures change over time. Look at how quick the Reformation happened.
5) You assume the Byzantine empire was somehow just Greek. It's an empire. It was huge. Empires have many many cultures within it.
Real life isn't a video game. Just because the Byzantine Empire occupied the region doesn't mean the people living there magically became Greek or any of the other cultures in the empire.

You don't understand history and culture as well as you think.

[volbound1700]

Originally posted by AC Denton:

1) The Byzantine Empire had been still fighting in that region for hundreds of years.
2) By 1270-1280 the Byzantine Empire just under half of Anatolia and shrunk to nothing after that.
3) A 174 year gap between limited Byzatine occupation of Anatolia and the start of the game. That's multiple generations. Most of Anatolia was controlled by many Turkish Bayliks for a long time while they fought each other and the Byzantine Empire. The Empire didn't have a strong hold over the region.
4) Cultures change over time. Look at how quick the Reformation happened.
5) You assume the Byzantine empire was somehow just Greek. It's an empire. It was huge. Empires have many many cultures within it.
Real life isn't a video game. Just because the Byzantine Empire occupied the region doesn't mean the people living there magically became Greek or any of the other cultures in the empire.

You don't understand history and culture as well as you think.

Dude, you don't understand history. The entire western coast of Anatolia is GREEK.

Ever heard of Ephesus, Miletus, Halicarnassus, Pergamum, Chios, etc.? How do you think the Greek-Persian wars started? Why does the Bible refer to everyone in the region Greek and they are worshipping Greek Gods like Diana reference in Acts?

In fact, most of that region was still Greek until the 1920s Greek-Turkish exchange as well as Greek genocide.

Man you are a dumbass. Go read history.

[Marquoz]

Volbound, read your original post again. You said the EASTERN part of Anatolia, not the west. In your second post, you correct that to west, but AC Denton was responding to your OP.

Originally posted by volbound1700:

So why is the Eastern part of Anatolia Turkish instead of Greek?

[Malvastor]

The game just isn't that focused on historical accuracy when it comes to culture (and religion, in some cases). Don't know that there's any better reason to give you than that. Greek and Turkish cultures aren't the only offenders.

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Volbound, read your original post again. You said the EASTERN part of Anatolia, not the west. In your second post, you correct that to west, but AC Denton was responding to your OP.

Originally posted by volbound1700:

So why is the Eastern part of Anatolia Turkish instead of Greek?

Good point. There are probably inaccuracies in the East too, but different ones.

[Mechenyi]

Same reason northern Caucasus is just "circassian" and "dagestani", or why "Russian" is split up between 5 different cultures. It's about Gameplay.

Anatolia would be ruined for the Turkish minors if they had to deal with wrong religion + wrong culture in 60% of their land. Also, keep in mind, the province is only representing the majority culture, not that the province is homogeneous.

[Mechenyi]

Originally posted by Malvastor:

The game just isn't that focused on historical accuracy when it comes to culture (and religion, in some cases). Don't know that there's any better reason to give you than that. Greek and Turkish cultures aren't the only offenders.

Originally posted by Marquoz:

Volbound, read your original post again. You said the EASTERN part of Anatolia, not the west. In your second post, you correct that to west, but AC Denton was responding to your OP.

Good point. There are probably inaccuracies in the East too, but different ones.

One would be the principality of Hamamshen in north-east anatolia. An armenian nation between what is, in-game, trebizond and samtskhe, and it survived until the 1490s.

It isn't in game because it was historically irrelevant, so it's unnecessary to separate it from either country.

[Kapika96]

Eastern or Western?

If you mean the Western part then yeah, it probably should be Greek. But Turkish also shouldn't be part of the Levantine culture group. The game (intentionally) gets a few culture/religion things wrong for "gameplay" reasons. IMO the game would be better off with more historical accuracy in those places though.

[JVC]

The eastern most part of Anatolia and the interior of it became Turkish culture way earlier than the Aegean, Black Sea and Mediterranean coastlines. But OP, you asked about Eastern Anatolia so people reply to that question.

[Spude]

Someone has been watching recent EU4 Youtube videos and now comes here with his own "new" take.

[JVC]

Originally posted by Spude:

Someone has been watching recent EU4 Youtube videos and now comes here with his own "new" take.

There isn't anything new in that observation. Greece and Turkey had a forced population exchange after the war of 1919-22 but the situation was more complicated right up till that point. Just look at any demographic map from before that time, it's easy to see that there were still Greek communities in some of the coastal regions before that war and population exchange. E.g. in Smyrna and Aydin there was a substantial Greek population element.
Of course those cities also had Turkish communities.

https://maps.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd_1911/shepherd-c-165.jpg

[volbound1700]

Originally posted by Kapika96:

Eastern or Western?

If you mean the Western part then yeah, it probably should be Greek. But Turkish also shouldn't be part of the Levantine culture group. The game (intentionally) gets a few culture/religion things wrong for "gameplay" reasons. IMO the game would be better off with more historical accuracy in those places though.

Yeah, I meant Western and not Eastern although Greek culture was pretty widespread throughout Anatolia as it had been for over 2000 years at that point. Eastern should have Armenian and Kurd but the Turkish groups make sense there.

[PuttBlug]

Originally posted by AC Denton:

1) The Byzantine Empire had been still fighting in that region for hundreds of years.
2) By 1270-1280 the Byzantine Empire just under half of Anatolia and shrunk to nothing after that.
3) A 174 year gap between limited Byzatine occupation of Anatolia and the start of the game. That's multiple generations. Most of Anatolia was controlled by many Turkish Bayliks for a long time while they fought each other and the Byzantine Empire. The Empire didn't have a strong hold over the region.
4) Cultures change over time. Look at how quick the Reformation happened.
5) You assume the Byzantine empire was somehow just Greek. It's an empire. It was huge. Empires have many many cultures within it.
Real life isn't a video game. Just because the Byzantine Empire occupied the region doesn't mean the people living there magically became Greek or any of the other cultures in the empire.

You don't understand history and culture as well as you think.

The Balkans were under Ottoman occupation for 400 to 500 years, they did not Turkify. You assert that the entire Anatolia became Turkified to the point that no province in it should be of Greek culture and claim that OP doesn't know his history as well as he thinks? Well then.

Also with the reformation you're talking about religion, the people who abandoned Catholicism did not forget, lose or alter their ethnic backgrounds. Those are different things.
And regarding the Byzantines of the late Roman empire, yes they were mainly Greeks as most non Greek areas of the empire were lost long before the arrival of the Ottomans. No historian denies that.

"You assume the Byzantine empire was somehow just Greek. It's an empire. It was huge. Empires have many many cultures within it. "

It was huge at some point in time, with many cultures in it. Long before the Seljuks invaded Anatolia. Then it remained an empire in name alone, but I trust you know that, of course.

[Exarch_Alpha]

The problem is that just like religions, you can´t have minorities in provinces. It´s THAT simple.

We will have to wait for EU 5 for that I guess.

[LSD]

They need to cut Byzantium out of EU games altogether. All it seems to attract are YouTube historians.

The first post answered this question, especially #5:

"You assume the Byzantine empire was somehow just Greek. It's an empire. It was huge. Empires have many many cultures within it.
Real life isn't a video game. Just because the Byzantine Empire occupied the region doesn't mean the people living there magically became Greek or any of the other cultures in the empire."

As in, it's a game, so the notion of culture is an abstract gameplay concept. Which of the people under the Byzantines would consider themselves homogeneously Greek, anyway? Each state throughout Greece considered itself culturally distinct from its neighbours for millennia before the Romans came along, and for the centuries after; countless conquerors came and went in that time, from Celts to Scythians. Meanwhile in the game you can turn a country from one culture to the other in a matter of years, making the whole argument moot: don't like it? Conquer it and change it.

[PuttBlug]

Originally posted by LSD:

They need to cut Byzantium out of EU games altogether. All it seems to attract are YouTube historians.

Thankfully you came to put youtube historians as you call them, in their place.

Originally posted by LSD:

As in, it's a game, so the notion of culture is an abstract gameplay concept. Which of the people under the Byzantines would consider themselves homogeneously Greek, anyway?

We should invent a time machine and ask them.

Originally posted by LSD:

Each state throughout Greece considered itself culturally distinct from its neighbours for millennia before the Romans came along, and for the centuries after;

Wrong, they all recognized their common hellenic roots even though they lived in distinct and with mostly small cultural differences states.

Originally posted by LSD:

countless conquerors came and went in that time, from Celts to Scythians

Wrong again. Before the Romans there wasn't any conqueror of the Greek peninsula, the Celtic invasion was thwarted and the Celts were pushed into Thrace and Asia Minor. As for the Scythians, they weren't ever present in Greece other than as slaves and mercenaries.