Are Ruthenians 'old Ukrainians'?, or a mix of Slavic cultures/languages?

[Usaball]

I've read that Ruthenians are the descendants of the old Kievan Rus state from the late 900s, but the state included modern day Russians, Ukrainians, and Byelorusians. But there are several Russian cultures in the game and a separate Byelorusian culture.

Would it not make sense to have a separate Ukrainian culture in the game alongside Ruthenians as well?

[Medicles]

Not really, because Ukraine is a nation made by the allies after WW1 to further weaken Russia. Ukrainian culture didnt really exist before that because the part of the world that is now Ukraine was part of other nations before WW1. Its like asking to give Liechtenstein their own culture just because the nation exists now.

[Mechenyi]

fpbp

Also, the real crime is splitting Russian up even more into four made up cultures.

[Kapika96]

Yeah, it definitely wouldn't make sense to have a Ukrainian culture or Ukraine tag in the game. Both are way after the game's end date. It would be similar to having Belgian culture in Flanders or something, just no.

Ruthenia is the closest there is to Ukraine though. They're not exactly the same, but they overlap quite heavily.

[Dmformom]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Medicles:

Not really, because Ukraine is a nation made by the allies after WW1 to further weaken Russia. Ukrainian culture didnt really exist before that because the part of the world that is now Ukraine was part of other nations before WW1. Its like asking to give Liechtenstein their own culture just because the nation exists now.

What? The first time Ukraine became independent was in 1917 in a revolution against Russia, and was quickly absorbed by the Soviet Union. Modern Ukraine became independent in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union

[JVC]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Usaball:

I've read that Ruthenians are the descendants of the old Kievan Rus state from the late 900s, but the state included modern day Russians, Ukrainians, and Byelorusians. But there are several Russian cultures in the game and a separate Byelorusian culture.

Would it not make sense to have a separate Ukrainian culture in the game alongside Ruthenians as well?

"Ruthenians" is the old name used for what we now call Ukrainians and Belarusians. You'll find the term in e.g. Austro-Hungarian administration. Long story short: They are indeed the decendents of the people living in Kyivan Rus around AD 1000. But they aren't the same as (Muscovite) Russians, the two populations developed differently for centuries and were influenced differently by external rulers; Moscovy was under Mongol rule for many years, Kyiv and most of modern Ukraine was under Lithuania and Poland-Lithuania for centuries. Poland-Lithuania was exposed to major changes in European history differently from Russia which was geographically more isolated and which kept its serfs in illiteracy for a very long time. That's in contrast with mainstream European history where the cultural wars between Catholics and Protestants resulted in both sides supporting teaching the peasants and serfs to read and write since that would enable them to read the bible, prayer books etc. Poland-Lithuania was a multi confessional state with Catholics, Orthodox, Jews and a few Protestants thrown in. Russia remained Orthodox with some subjugated Muslim populations and a few (Baltic and Finnish) Protestants thrown in.

Being part of Poland-LIthuania where the leading part of the state was Catholic exposed Ukraine to those developments differently from how Russia developed. Notably L'viv was annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939 when Hitler and Stalin divided Poland but that city had never been part of the Russian empire so 1939 was the first time that region became ruled from Moscow (apart from a brief military occupation during World War I).

As for the terms Ruthenians vs. Ukrainians it's a long story but when the game starts in 1444 the term used would definitely have been something related to "Rus" or "Ruthenian" but people confuse the former term with "Russia". The Grand Duchy of Lithuania had some kind of Slavonic as it's administrtive language since Lithuanian wasn't properly codified. Belarusian historians would tell you that Slavonic language is the ancestor of Belarusian.

What's in a name? Today we refer to the Greeks using that term. The Ottomans that ruled them for 500 years referred to them as "Rum" [Romans] and some Greeks living under Ottoman rule until 1912 continued to refer to themselves as "Romanoi" until that time. Yet we all recognize that they're Greeks, not Romans.

But hindsight is 20-20 in history so perhaps it will change in the future how we refer to the Ruthenians. As for the game, it might be an idea to insert Ukrainian as a culture that can be developed at some point in time during the timeline perhaps after the time where parts of the Orthodox church became Byzantine rite Catholics.

[MasterYi]

“Ruthenia” is just a different latinisation of “Rus”, the other latinised version being “Russia”

[Spude]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Dmformom:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Medicles:

Not really, because Ukraine is a nation made by the allies after WW1 to further weaken Russia. Ukrainian culture didnt really exist before that because the part of the world that is now Ukraine was part of other nations before WW1. Its like asking to give Liechtenstein their own culture just because the nation exists now.

What? The first time Ukraine became independent was in 1917 in a revolution against Russia, and was quickly absorbed by the Soviet Union. Modern Ukraine became independent in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union

I'd just add that after WW1 and Soviet Union came to be Ukrainian SSR was formed which was for all intents and purposes the same Ukraine (minus Crimean Peninsula) that became independent in -91.

[Mad Doctor]

*coughs*

[Malvastor]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Medicles:

Not really, because Ukraine is a nation made by the allies after WW1 to further weaken Russia. Ukrainian culture didnt really exist before that because the part of the world that is now Ukraine was part of other nations before WW1. Its like asking to give Liechtenstein their own culture just because the nation exists now.

What? The part of the world that is now Poland was part of other nations. That doesn't mean there was no Polish culture until 1918; it just means that culture's homeland was under foreign rule. Same principle.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mechenyi:

fpbp

Also, the real crime is splitting Russian up even more into four made up cultures.

Which ones are made up?

[Radene]

It's an error to see the "culture" in EU4 as any sort of "national identity"; since "national identity" is a relatively new concept, only a few centuries old. EU4 is set in the time where the "identity" of an individual vis-a-vis the world has, over a long (and often bloody) time transformed from "fealty to the banner of the very concrete 'I can point at them and tell you who they are' leaders" to "fealty to the banner of a more abstract concept of a 'nation' that can't be equated to a specific person/group". To put it more simply, it's the transformation from "For the King!" to "For the nation!"

How successful that transformation was is a contested issue, since we see many "nation-states" fall back into the old patterns, when people can no longer relate to an abstract concept, but instead need a concrete "leader figure" in order to feel any attachment to the so-called "common cause of the nation". And then it only takes an ambitious, cunning person not burdened by mortal scruples to harness that dynamic and set up the foundations for a huge mess a few decades down the road, because in the end, it's always going to end in typical human foolishness costing us entire generations of progress.

I suppose in this regard the Eastern philosophies have an advantage, since they're stronger on collectivism while the Western ones are more individualistic - so it's easier for example, for a Chinese or Japanese person to feel attachment to a vague, abstract concept of "this system that is greater than me and in which I am but one cog" than we Westerners do, who are more prone to look for individual achievement, individual power, individual respect. And if we can't find that for ourselves, we do the next best thing - find a powerful/influential individual to follow and pretend we're a little bit like them just because we're the groupies. Note that such individuals aren't necessarily presidents and kings, they can also be celebs or sport stars. Now of course, the Eastern places aren't immune to this kind of stuff either, but there seems to be less of it, less of this desire to "be someone whose name will go down in history" while we're completely a civilization of wannabes.

Well that went off on a tangent, didn't it.

My point is, "culture" in EU4 can't really represent "national identity", since most of it happens before nationalism was even a thing.

[Mechenyi]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Malvastor:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Medicles:

Not really, because Ukraine is a nation made by the allies after WW1 to further weaken Russia. Ukrainian culture didnt really exist before that because the part of the world that is now Ukraine was part of other nations before WW1. Its like asking to give Liechtenstein their own culture just because the nation exists now.

What? The part of the world that is now Poland was part of other nations. That doesn't mean there was no Polish culture until 1918; it just means that culture's homeland was under foreign rule. Same principle.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mechenyi:

fpbp

Also, the real crime is splitting Russian up even more into four made up cultures.

Which ones are made up?

Ryazanian for sure, and the only difference between north Russians(novgorodians) and "muscovites" were slightly different genetic admixtures, but their cultures were the same. Karelian is accurate in the placement of actual Karelian Finns, but they aren't a Russian culture(and IMO should at least be added to the nordic group). Now, I get that pdx did it for gameplay reasons, but I think it would complement Russia more to have a unified culture(as they more or less did IRL).

[Radene]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mechenyi:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Malvastor:

What? The part of the world that is now Poland was part of other nations. That doesn't mean there was no Polish culture until 1918; it just means that culture's homeland was under foreign rule. Same principle.



Which ones are made up?

Ryazanian for sure, and the only difference between north Russians(novgorodians) and "muscovites" were slightly different genetic admixtures, but their cultures were the same. Karelian is accurate in the placement of actual Karelian Finns, but they aren't a Russian culture(and IMO should at least be added to the nordic group). Now, I get that pdx did it for gameplay reasons, but I think it would complement Russia more to have a unified culture(as they more or less did IRL).

That'd really depend on whether the Ryazanians themselves feel that way. "Culture" can be an incredibly local thing. Hell, in some Swiss mountain valleys, even two neighboring villages will insist that they're nothing alike.

I mean, what is a "culture"? It can't really be defined from the outside.

[Malvastor]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mechenyi:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Malvastor:

What? The part of the world that is now Poland was part of other nations. That doesn't mean there was no Polish culture until 1918; it just means that culture's homeland was under foreign rule. Same principle.



Which ones are made up?

Ryazanian for sure, and the only difference between north Russians(novgorodians) and "muscovites" were slightly different genetic admixtures, but their cultures were the same. Karelian is accurate in the placement of actual Karelian Finns, but they aren't a Russian culture(and IMO should at least be added to the nordic group). Now, I get that pdx did it for gameplay reasons, but I think it would complement Russia more to have a unified culture(as they more or less did IRL).

Novgorodian it seems had a somewhat different language, which probably means a somewhat different culture.

Also, it's probably a bit of an accuracy to have Karelians or Finns in the Nordic group.

[bri]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Mechenyi:

Now, I get that pdx did it for gameplay reasons, but I think it would complement Russia more to have a unified culture(as they more or less did IRL).

And for all intents and purposes they have in game as forming Russia makes you an empire and thus gives the cultural union of the East Slavic culture group...

[JVC]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Spude:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Dmformom:

What? The first time Ukraine became independent was in 1917 in a revolution against Russia, and was quickly absorbed by the Soviet Union. Modern Ukraine became independent in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union

I'd just add that after WW1 and Soviet Union came to be Ukrainian SSR was formed which was for all intents and purposes the same Ukraine (minus Crimean Peninsula) that became independent in -91.

Except that Kresy (Eastern Galicia) in Volhynia with cities like L'viv, Ivano-Frankivsk, Boryslav, and Rivne was part of Poland until Hitler and Stalin carved up that country. They were annexed to the Ukrainian SSR in 1939. But Ukraine's northern and eastern border is the same one as the Ukrainian SSR had.