Je maintiendrai! Forming the Republic of the Netherlands/United Provinces

[Wicked Mouse]

Okay, I'm fairly new to EU4 and after playing the tuts and watching tuts on YT starting to get the hang of it and I felt confident enough to try something seriously in Ironman mode.

So I decided I wanted attempt to get the achievement "Je Maintiendrai!", forming The Netherlands in the vanilla game, as I don't have any of the expansions yet, being Holland (and Zeeland). I already had figured that as a start I had to get rid of being a Junior State from Burgundy, because being one severely limits what I can do.

In my first attempt this was solved automatically. Burgundy could not produce an heir to the throne and when the ruler died, there was practically no-one ruling and so the Junior states were declared independent. However Austria quickyly seized all the lower provinces (Flanders and Brabant), so I was between a rock and a hard place. Southern neighbours are one of the largest powers in Europe, good luck getting land from them. And Utrecht to the east is still a diocese, run by a bishop and part of HRE. I thought I could sneak in and get Breda, when Austria had other wars to deal with, but no luck.

So, I decided to restart and hoped for a more fortunate RNG. In any further attempts Burgundy went like a bull in a china shop and started warring other nations pretty much at the beginning, dragging all the junior states in, getting rofl-stomped by either Austria or Savoy or other fairly large nations, ending up losing the war but in the peace negotiations demanded to release the junior states. I've tried claiming Friesland after, but were not allowed to as it was too far away still.

Now in my current attempt Burgundy went bonkers again, but the surrounding nations aren't all power-hungry and gobling up others leaving me fairly vulnerable, surrounded by decent sized nations while Holland being limited by the technology and ideas it manages to research, without much prospect on gaining any land (militarily or shear show of financial force).

I've managed to befriend France and Friesland and drag them into a war against Brabant in order to capture some of their provinces. They warred against Flanders and captured Gent and Vlaanderen, so had grown a bit too much to my liking, but also got allied with Savoy. Luckily I had France on my side. With their enormous armies I could manage to stay safe from Savoy, have France take a lot of the blows and occupy all the provinces of Brabant and so win this war. It offered peace, giving Vlaanderen and Breda and some ducats.

I decided to accept it and so started to core the two new provinces. But then HRE stepped up and demanded Breda back. It was unlawfully claimed and so I'd suffer the consequences if I wouldn't comply. I considered stepping out of HRE first, but that would automatically return Breda also. So I decided to return it to Brabant, then step out. I might have done wrong here? Should I retry again?

So now I'm a bit puzzled over what to do next. The province of Utrecht was captured by Gelre, so that's now also a two-province nation and they declared rivalry on Holland (still in good standing with Friesland). So I have a Casus Belli against Gelre, got a claim on Utrecht so also a Casus Belli. So vassalization is no option anymore. But if I capture Utrecht and possibly also Gelre, HRE will still claim it back, since they are HRE provinces, right? And declaring war on HRE I risk the wrath of Austria, as I have to declare war on the Emperor too.

TL;DR

Want to form the Netherlands, and so want to capture the province Utrecht, but how to tackle HRE being such a small nation? Already had to return a HRE province I had claimed before, with the help of France.

[Vladimiś]

Dont return unlafwul land or ally emps so he wont send you it. Take your time and dont grab too much at once

[brian_va]

breaking free is the hard part, the rest falls on diplomacy (alliance with emperor) and waiting til the right time to strike and take what you need. even if france take some, they will go up against austria and/or spain at some point and you can hit them when they are weakened and with some help.

[Rommel]

You have to wait for the right time to attack HRE nations. The emperor won't join the war if his relations with you are high enough (you have to be allies usually) or if he is depleted from another war/wars. Always try to ally the emperor if at all possible, if he likes you enough he wont even demand provinces back.

[Wicked Mouse]

Hm, alright so befriend Austria, kiss his behind and then hope I can take provinces from his beloved Catholic Empire without him blinking an eye? Will give that a whirl. Otherwise I hope Protestantism will sprout quickly and take HRE from within.

[brian_va]

Originally posted by Wicked Mouse:

Hm, alright so befriend Austria, kiss his behind and then hope I can take provinces from his beloved Catholic Empire without him blinking an eye?

yep, his love for you will supress his desire to kill you.

[Wicked Mouse]

Excellent!

[brian_va]

only catch is that austria wont always be the emperor. better make a few friends.

[Wicked Mouse]

I can only have 4 relations without penalties :(

[brian_va]

yep, decisions come with consequences.

[Wicked Mouse]

Alright, so I tried that path regardless, but no matter how favourable my relations with Austria was, being outside the HRE forces Austria into that war. No questions asked. And so I got myself in the kind of war I regretted.

So I decided to restart, and went passive, seeing what Burgundy would do and how things would turn out. It took a good 70 or 80 years or so before Burgundy got into a war where it was forced to concede Holland as a Junior State at the peace treaty. Only thing I could do was allying the other two Junior States (Brabant and Flanders) in case there was window of opportunity to declare independence.

In that time period Burgundy fully annexed Brabant. When Holland was finally free from Burgundy I've tried capturing Gent (Vlaanderen was already captured by France), and later when there was an opportunity I captured Utrecht. I had Friesland, Utrecht and Gelre as rivals.

Friesland had already gained some provinces and also some allies east of it. And me capturing Utrecht really seemed to have rustled some Jimmies and didn't rub well with Friesland, as one of the negative factors was unlawful ownership of Utrecht.

Just as I was plotting to capture Gelre next Friesland came down with a vengeance! Brought a combined force of 40+k of ALL four of his allies. To make matters worse, Gelre also decided to declare war some time later. When Friesland demanded peace it demanded Holland to release Gent AND Utrecht. I had no other option than to comply.

While that was over, I quickly raised a mercenary army from the two provinces I was left (and started!) with to wear down Gelre and make it stop without them occupying any of my provinces. That worked and it backed down fairly quickly after, demanding peace with only a marginal price.

Sooooo... I find myself again between a rock and a hard place. Even though Protestantism and Reform has spread through a sizable chunk of Europe (including my nation), HRE has a power over all its provinces, so Utrecht will still be unlawful when I'd take it again. Next to that Utrecht is now allied to Austria AND Saxony (they're both very large).

Gelre is allied to Aachen (small) and Brunswick (medium), but I cannot capture Gelre, as it doesn't border my provinces (yet). Burgundy is sizable and I'd really need some good allies if I'd want to take it on, and I'd still risk claiming unlawful land since it's all HRE provinces, although it's not part of HRE.

Gent on the other hand also had very powerful allies but decided to join Vlaanderen in its war of independence against France (and Castile, Aragon, Scotland). Basically David versus Goliath, although it's allied to Commonwealth, which is HUUUGE, so I don't want to dare joining the war France is fighting, risking the wrath of a huge ally of the new nation.

But it's now called... Netherlands?!? I don't think it'd stop me from getting the achievement, right? Or..? But I found myself beaten back to square one (Holland and Zeeland), in desparate need of allies so I just allied Burgundy, as it was still in very good standing and any other ally I could find not too far away, which became Denmark and Bremen. Great Britain or France are no options as I cannot raise standing enough with my diplomats to reach the alliance threshold.

So I feel quite stuck right now. After Trade Ideas, Economic Ideas and Defence Ideas, I've now started on Exploration Ideas, so I might try and find unclaimed land. Other than that right now I see little options. I removed Friesland as a rival and replaced it with Gent, but that joined Netherlands, so I have now Gelre and Netherlands as rivals. Eyeing that because it doesn't belong to HRE.

Sorry for wall of text, but anyone with (more) experience have any tips how to move from here in order to own all needed provinces for the United Provinces?

This is my map right now, by the way:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1215122495

[the_panther]

Unlawful territory can be lived with. Never take a province that you will return if the Emperor demands it.

However, ther is a great trick to this. The Emperor cannot demand a province if you are at war!

You can either:
1. Take a province from an lesser allied enemy, core it, and then peace out with the main enemy.
2. Declare a second war before taking territory in the first war.

The key is that if you finish coring an HRE province while you are at war, the Emperor cannot demand it.

I recently completed this Dithmarschen run and never once had the unlawful province modifier despite not being allied to the Emperor:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1193945713

Finally, you can vassalize an enemy and this also gets around the unlawful province modifier.

[freestyler-rs]

Ok first of all you seem to have left the HRE. If so, that was a big no-no. Being in the HRE protects you and gives you the option to attack the HRE without dragging the emperor in. If you can, rejoin the HRE. Secondly If you still have that alliance with France, use it against Burgundy. Thirdly the Netherlands can be formed, but they can also break free via event chains and all dutch minors can join. If you want the achievement you have to destroy them, because there can only be one. And since they always get ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in their first war, you can possibly take some easy land off of them.

In terms of Austria and Saxony. If your targets have scary alliances, you can try to ally them yourself and drag them into a meaningless and easy war under your control. And while they fight in the same war as you, your target cannot call them in and is completely open to an attack from you. A more costly option would be to attack a weak ally of theirs without making them cobelligerent. That way they cannot call their allies into the war. It makes taking their land quite costly though.

[Wicked Mouse]

The alliance with France was in a different playthrough that I did not continue. I don't have one now. However the province Vlaanderen, at that moment owned by France, that declared independence and formed Netherlands got joined by Gent. But obviously they were not able to succeed in winning that war. Vlaanderen got to keep its province, but reverted back to the nation Flanders. Which in turn meant that it was a "new" nation with no diplomatic relations. As soon as I found that out, I already had Gent claimed so I had a Casus Belli, I delcared war and invited the available ally Bremen to join. Instead of fighting me Flanders decided to try to occupy Bremen's provinces.

While I occupied both of Flanders' provinces, those two were basically playing cat and mouse, chasing each other (which got me the Cold War achievement xD). I first offered peace and though it had a green tick, it did not get accepted somehow. Then Flanders offered peace, but it would only concede one of the two provinces, so I declined and waited until I could send another peace offer, and that got accepted.

So I quickly was able to seize Flanders, and I think I got away with it. Cored it ASAP. Neighbours were only mildly upset. Got a warning from France, though. So I'm laying low until that blows over and start a little colony at South America, so I can expand my trade power in the Caribbean.

So still got three hurdles left: My good buddy Burgundy, who has been friendly to me all those years from the start and so for the sake of having a reliable neighbour allied them. Not a HRE member, but all its provinces are HRE owned. Utrecht, allied to two large HRE nations. And Friesland, also having a few sizable friends, but impossible to claim and own at this point.

I'm still a HRE member, btw. Just completely ignoring all the papal stuff, being a Protestant nation. I left in a earlier playthrough and saw why that was not a good decision.

[Wicked Mouse]

I've slowly turned against Burgundy, allying Austria, Saxony, Lüstenburg, Friesland and Utrecht and had them all join in a war against Burgundy. With that war I managed to seize two provinces: Anvers/Antwerpen and Breda. So all I have left now are the provinces Utrecht, Gelre and Friesland.

In a war where Friesland and his allies were set up against Saxony and Co, I chose to choose the side of Saxony (honour the alliance). In that war, where Utrecht was dragged into as well, Utrecht obtained the province Friesland from Friesland in the peace treaty.

So the three provinces I need are all part of the nation Utrecht, which in turn is allied with Saxony, Austria and some others. When I'd start a war against Utrecht, Saxony would be called in as a defender and most of my other allies won't be able to be called WITH me in a war, but rather against me.

Why start war? Well.. vassalization is pretty darn difficult. I'd need to be an economic AND military SUPER SUPER power in order for them to even consider such an option... I've got to nearly +200 relation with Utrecht, but still had way too little economic base or military power to be capable of vassalizing Utrecht.

..or is there some other way to annex the last three needed provinces, because I feel like there are no options for me anymore.

[brian_va]

see if they have an ally that you could war and drag them into without too many issues. outside of that, gonna have to wait around until alliances change.
it may also be time to switch up your allies, depending on who likes you and how they are doing.