Muscovy start help + some general questions

[YaRUS]

Hi guys, I get back to EU4 after quite some time and decided to play Muscovy. I bought 3rd Rome and Cossacks dlc's. I played a while ago so kind of overwhelmed by a lot of new things in the game. I watched a couple of general and Muscovy specific guides but still have some questions. So sorry for asking maybe something obvious but still.

1. Muscovy's first idea and vassals.

So I watched a lot about Vassal feed tactics. And everywhere I saw this, it was told that Muscovy/Russia is a great country for this tactic. In some of the conversations on forums, I read a discussion regarding first possible ideas for Moscuvy and it was said that it is great to pick Influence first since Muscovy has a lot of vassals from the very beginning and vassal feed tactic works well with Muscovy in general. I think I am missing here something. Why Influence is viable as a very first idea? By the time I get + income and Diplo integration discount bonuses, my initial vassals are already integrated. So the Influence idea is definitely NOT to gain more value from initial vassals but from future ones. Am I right here?

And in such case why it is viable to pick Influence as the first one? The religious idea seems to be much better since when you get missionary conversion bonus it is exactly the timing when you are ready to expand to hordes (Golden Horde, Kazan and further). If delaying Religious idea to second or even third order - you will have a lot of troubles with National unrest due to bad religion unity. Another disadvantage of Influence idea as a first - in most of my games I see that Muscovy's leaders are better at admin and military but bad in diplo points. So you don't have that much diplo points to spend on Influence idea.

The same thought process seems to be correct for Administrative idea as a first idea group. By the time you get coring discount you already integrated Novgorod and most likely Golden Horde and Kazan. It is still viable to get this discount since you'll continue expansion to Lithuania and all over the place but that doesn't seem to help in the very beginning.

2. Vassal feed tactics details.

So regarding vassal feed tactics on Muscovy. Usually, as a Muscovy, your first move will be to declare war on Novgorod. As a result of this war, you can get a lot of lands and usually it is advised to get everything on Sweden/Norway border to isolate Novgorod to be able to eat it in later wars. So the question here - does it make sense to give these lands to your vassals? Should I give only those lands which are treated as cores to my vassals? Or I can give them any land and they would core it? It seems to be viable to save admin points in the very beginning so you could rush to the first idea group but from another perspective, I don't really understand if it is viable to feed Muscovy's vassals in the very beginning since you want to boost your own economy. The best start for Muscovy would be to war against Novgorod, Tver, Ryazan and Odoev. In terms of vassal feed - you could give Tver to Rostov, annex Ryzan and Odoev so hordes wouldn't get it, and feed some Novgorod's land to Pskov, Beloozero and Perm. The thing is - I don't understand if it actually makes sense or it is better just to annex all these lands. I also saw interesting things on some stream - as a result of war with Ryazan, player annexed only 2 provinces (from total 4) with the same religion and culture but he could annex all. I don't understand this move at all. Horde has claims on lands player left for Ryazan and they most likely would come for them.

3. Institutions tactics as Muscovy.

This mechanic is completely new to me. So feudalism is already present on Muscovy's lands which is good. But starting from 1450 Renaissance institution start to appear in the world. If I won't do anything, then this institution would appear in my capital (Moscow) only at 1529 which is a huge tech penalty. I saw on some guides that you could use development to improve institution on your country and Embrace institution quicker. I tried this and was able to do so but I feel that I am wasting so much monarch points on this which put we behind in tech a lot which is very week position at the beginning of the game when each military tech means a lot. So I have 3 questions here: a) when it is viable to use development to embrace Renaissance as Moscovy? b) How exactly I should do it? Should I invest only in my capital (Moscow) or I should split development points among different provinces? Should I invest only admin/Diplo points or I should put here everything I have? c) Should I take loans to be able to Embrace the institution if I am short on ducats? When it is viable?

4. Estates tactics as Muscovy

This is also a new mechanic to me. As a Muscovy, it looks like I should decrease the influence of Boyar estate since it too high from the very beginning (80%) which can be done by some events usually. The questions I have here are the following: a) Is it possible to keep everyone happy or I should focus on 1-2 estates and keep others on yellow stats (neutral). b) I don't feel like I can demand some help from estates (admin, mill points, money) because it will always put them in red which I don't want. How you guys demand help from estates and keep them happy? c) How to properly split land among estates? How much % rate should each estate have to be happy? How much % I should keep for myself? Which land should I give to which estate? In some guides, it was told to give trade nodes to Burgers so for Muscovy it could be Novgorod, Kholmogory (or White sea, don't remember) and Kazan? Steppes should be given to cossacks (except provinces with gold) - how much of them?

5. Patriarch authority, icons, and Defender of the faith.

This one should be easier.

a) When it is viable to spend 10% authority on an icon? There are really good ones for institution spread and embracement discount + for manpower and national unrest. It is obvious that you could spend when you have 100% authority but is it viable to use authority early in the game?

b) When it is viable to pick Defender of the faith? I can get it really fast by taking money from Novgorod and Hordes. It gives really nice bonuses but +5% tech cost and possible early wars while there are many independent orthodox countries in the game, seems to be too dangerous. Looks like it is viable when you form Russia and there are no far orthodox states which you have to protect. Am I right?

6. State edicts

Again, new mechanics for me. When it is viable to use edicts? That might help with institution spread and embracement but how exactly and when I should do it? Should I do it only for capital before trying to embrace institution or it is useful for different provinces?

That's all for now. Sorry for newbie questions if they are so but please guide me thru these.

[bri]

Forschungsfüchse の投稿を引用：

I have never been a blobber and thus never a fan of admin.
If you really want the 5 extra states - and this is a random idea - can always try expansion: 5 extra states, 20% global trade power and 1 extra merchant (and further perk, depending on DLC), and extra diplomatic relation for more vassals. But then you have to want to use those 2 colonists... Alaska here we come?

Or just use them in Siberia instead of burning diplo points (may even want to keep Muscovy ideas if you go that route).

[Mr.M]

bri の投稿を引用：

Forschungsfüchse の投稿を引用：

I have never been a blobber and thus never a fan of admin.
If you really want the 5 extra states - and this is a random idea - can always try expansion: 5 extra states, 20% global trade power and 1 extra merchant (and further perk, depending on DLC), and extra diplomatic relation for more vassals. But then you have to want to use those 2 colonists... Alaska here we come?

Or just use them in Siberia instead of burning diplo points (may even want to keep Muscovy ideas if you go that route).

Muscovys ideas are pretty sweet.

[bri]

;1640919103689481104 の投稿を引用：

bri の投稿を引用：

Or just use them in Siberia instead of burning diplo points (may even want to keep Muscovy ideas if you go that route).

Muscovys ideas are pretty sweet.

You can definitely make arguments that they are as good or better than the Russia ideas...

[YaRUS]

Hi guys,

So have one question regarding Policies. I currently have the following policies enabled:
Admin: Edict of Resistance, The spy discovery act, Vassal Integration Act
Diplo: Cultural unity
Mil: Local Militias

It appears that I have -2 admin points penalty because of policies.

I did not get it why I have this penalty. This is because I have 3 admin policies and only 1 diplo/mil? How should I choose my policies to not get this penalty?

[CyPunk]

YaRUS の投稿を引用：

Hi guys,

So have one question regarding Policies. I currently have the following policies enabled:
Admin: Edict of Resistance, The spy discovery act, Vassal Integration Act
Diplo: Cultural unity
Mil: Local Militias

It appears that I have -2 admin points penalty because of policies.

I did not get it why I have this penalty. This is because I have 3 admin policies and only 1 diplo/mil? How should I choose my policies to not get this penalty?

Only the first policy is free for each type: so you get one free admin policy, one free diplo policy, one free military policy.

Any other active policy costs 1 mana point (of the relevant type) to maintain.

Some nation etc. have one extra policy, but likely not applicable here.

So: you either have to make a choice, or pay the price, for your admin policies.

[tonypa]

There is no real reason to activate more then one policy of each type.

[dl]

I usually go with the Administrative Clergy reform which gives +1 free admin policy, increased clergy loyalty and influence.

[bri]

dl の投稿を引用：

I usually go with the Administrative Clergy reform which gives +1 free admin policy, increased clergy loyalty and influence.

Eh, I generally don't have that many admin policies I'm interested in, I'd kill for a similar mechanism that added a free diplo policy though.

[YaRUS]

I almost at 1700 year now in my company. I was able to get Crimea from Ottomans and pushed them from the Caucasus region. It would require many wars to kick them from the Balkans area. Another route of my expansion is to Samarkand and Lahore trade centers. I conquered them all but it required me to build long sausage from my territory directly to Lahore. So the next wars would allow me to increase the number of territories I control around these trade centers.

Based on the current game, I may say that 5th or 6th idea group should be Trade. This is required in order to be able to get value from Samarkand and Lahore trade centers. Otherwise, you won't have enough merchants to steer trade from these centers to Novgorod.

Another thing regarding the ideas which I came up is that actually Administrative idea is required only in case you are going for World Conquest. Otherwise it most likely a waste, especially those mercenaries related ideas. +5 state count is very valuable to boost your economy midgame but as it was already mentioned for this purpose Expansion idea group would work better.

As a result of these assumptions I think the best ideas for Muscovy would be:

1 - 2. Influence/Defensive,

I would prefer Influence first and then Defensive since anyway we should be able to win initial wars without Defensive ideas. Influence idea group really helps in a lot of ways. It is very handy for vassal feeding playstyle especially for Muscovy since you already have 5 vassals at the beginning of the game. Defensive would boost your military strength to be able to win in wars with equal enemies (Danemark, Hordes).

3. Religious

You obviously need this idea to be able to convert Sunni provinces. The timing for this idea group would work best if you would focus on North Europe objectives first and switch to Hordes after that.

We need to focus on the following things first:

- Vassalize or feed to Pskov Livonian Order/Riga before Danemark would get it
- Fight with Danemark to transfer Norway as your vassal
- Fight with Danemark to conquer Finland and release it as a vassal to feed Sweden and other Danish Scandinavian provinces to it later.

After these tasks are accomplished we are good to switch to hordes. The timing of this switch usually happens when our forces already stronger than hordes forces and we already started to invest into Religious idea group so we could convert Sunni provinces.

The problem with this approach though is that most likely we won't be able to take Crimea before Ottomans would vassalize it. If that happened - we won't be able to take Crimea for a long time.

There could be though completely another approach here which rely on using Quasim vassal feeding to conquer hordes quick without issues with religious unity until we can handle this. But I prefer an approach which I mentioned above.

4. Idea groups after the initial 3 are not really important for single campaign. It also may vary based on your monarch stats and tech timings. I personally took Administrative here to get coring discount and +5 states - that really help to get more money midgame. But as I mentioned above, it is not required and can be replaced with ideas like Expansion or Quality. If you are going for world conquest it is really required to get Administrative at this moment. It could be valuable to get it even earlier.

5-6. Trade / Humanism

As I already mentioned, Trade is required to get value from Samarkand and Lahore. Humanism would make our life with separatists rebels much easier.

[bri]

5-6. Trade / Humanism

As I already mentioned, Trade is required to get value from Samarkand and Lahore. Humanism would make our life with separatists rebels much easier.

If you go with expansion then once you get Global Trade you'll be more or less set on merchants (Kiev, Crimea/Astrakhan, Samarkand, Girin) as further expansion in India that feeds into Samarkand is all in trade company areas that will provide the required merchants. It can certainly still be beneficial to get the merchants but it is less problematic to not have them.

As for humanism, unless you are going for a WC you really don't need it if you also took religious. Just down one initial revolt and convert everything and the area should be pretty calm thereafter.

[YaRUS]

In 18th century with Imperialism and other War score discounts I can blob pretty fast. I am already got to Indian border, took Constantinopole (Tsargrad/Istanbul), entire Caucasus region. I have way too much provinces to convert with only 3 missionaries. So every time i start a new conflict, rebels start to spawn everywhere in Afganistan-Lahore-Persia areas. They all are separatists. Humanism, I think, would really help with separatism. But not sure though.

Regarding Trading Companies - the timing to get them is much later than required timing for Samarkand and Lahore trade centers. But in general - I agree with you that Trading companies could resolve low merchants issue.

So, in the current campaing I don't have too much goals left. Still want to do the following things:

1. Free Balkans from Ottomans.
2. Free Holy Land from Ottomans and create Jerusalem vassal.
3. Get Trading Companies in India
4. Defeat Ming

I think I should be able to do that in the age of Revolutions.

But I have to say that game after 1600 get much more boring.

[YaRUS]

Hey guys, quick question regarding Trade Companies. Is it OK if provinces of TC would be a part of my country with so I could have direct access to these provinces thru my lands? As Russia I rather conquer these provinces via land than via sea.

[SirBob]

YaRUS の投稿を引用：

Here I am at 1555 as Russia, trying to Conquer the Eastern Europe region (Lithuania). While it still seems that I am doing just fine I faced a major issue with institution.

For Renaissance institution, it was very natural how it was embraced. I got to position where I was ahead in Mil and Admin tech so I had both institutions spread penalty and ahead of a time penalty. I selected Icon to reduce embracement cost and improve institutions spread speed, used Development discount edict on my Capital state and start to spend my points on development in Moscow. Renaissance already had some presence in Moscow but I had to spend MP to complete it to 100%. Almost immediately after that, I was able to embrace the institution. Since I was playing thru vassal feed rather than annexing territories, embracement cost was pretty low.

The situation with Colonization institution was completely different. I didn't have any progress of this institution in any of my provinces for a long time. I tried to spend some MP to get more progress on the institution but for some reason % amount did not increase after I spent 150 MP. I really don't understand why - is there any requirements for the province to be able to improve institutions presence by using development? I had to wait while this institution would appear in my country naturally at least in 1 province - looks like only after that I was able to increase % by using development. Printing Press already appeared and I still didn't embrace Colonization. Only in 1552 year I was able to embrace it for 2000 ducats! Had to take 4 loans for that since I was lack on money. So need more detailed advice here - what is prefered startegy to embrace Colonialism as Russia.

Do you have the increase dev pack? I will use excess diplo and admin to pump institutions, you really dont need to stay up to date with those two techs, just make sure you are on time for the important levels.

Typically I try to make a level 3 center of trade in my capital region that lowers the dev costs of all the tiles in that state, than I pump ren in my capital as soon as 1450 hits, I take it to 30-33ish if in europe or all the way if elsewhere (Also grabs you the 30 dev city you need for the first age of discovery), colonialism in a second, and printing press in a third. I put them together because those provences become very high dev provences, by having them together and with low autonomy further institutions will rapidly spread between them and enable me to embrace them.

Edit: Whoops just scrolled down to the bottom of the page. Assumed that was the last post.

YaRUS の投稿を引用：

Hey guys, quick question regarding Trade Companies. Is it OK if provinces of TC would be a part of my country with so I could have direct access to these provinces thru my lands? As Russia I rather conquer these provinces via land than via sea.

Yes its fine, as long as they are on a seperate cont from your capital you can trade company anywhere (Russia is part of europe, the trade companies are in asia and 3 in africa). The regions map mode will allow you to see where things are located though a couple are wierd, like half of the georgia region (The part in the crimea trade node) is in europe the other half is in asia.

[Songbird]

Two early game tips from someone who plays a lot of Russia:

1.) Threaten Blue Horde - They will now ignore Ryazan for as long as the warning is up. this means you don't have to rush it if there is a nice opportunity to strike Kazan or something.

2.) Before unpausing in 1444 build your army to cap with infantry and move your main army with the 2 star general to Novgorod. Once all your troops are built immediatly declare war on them, you can most of the times stackwipe Novgorod this way and finish the wars in only 2 or 3 years. Remember to isolate Novgorod by taking the provinces that border the danish sphere of influence.

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

YaRUS の投稿を引用：

[...]
2. Free Holy Land from Ottomans and create Jerusalem vassal.
[...]

Owning Jerusalem directly gives you an additional missionary.
You also get one missionary each for owning Rome and Mecca.
As Orthodox nation you can also restore the Pentarchy (directly own and convert to Orthodox Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antiochia) for another missionary.

YaRUS の投稿を引用：

Hey guys, quick question regarding Trade Companies. Is it OK if provinces of TC would be a part of my country with so I could have direct access to these provinces thru my lands? As Russia I rather conquer these provinces via land than via sea.

TC land is TC land. There is no difference if it is connected by land to the "main part" of your nation or not.