Protecting Trade Node - do I need a merchant in the node to reap the benefit?

[Garanvir]

In the interface for the Protect Trade Mission for a fleet of light ships - if you hover over the send button for each node it will give you a tool tip saying how much gold teh fleet will generate (or lose) if you send the fleet to gaurd that node.

What isn't clear though - do I need to have a merchant in that node to actually realize that gain...

For example say I have a merchant collecting in English Channel but no merchant to steer trade in Lubeck, but there are AI merchants in Lubeck who are already steering trade towards English Channel (well someone is steering it I assume it is AI merchants).

Now suppose the Protect Trade tooltip says if I send my fleet to Lubeck it will generate an extra 5 gold... will I actually see that gold without a merchant of my own there or do I need a merchant in Lubeck to actually reap that 5 gold?

Or should I just send the fleet to privateer as all the nodes I actually have merchants say the fleet would generate a net loss on protection (note I already have my Privateer Power Projection maxed out so not a factor in the decision)?

[Stormfox]

The gain or loss in the tooltip is the estimated net result of sending these ships to that node.

It is not entirely accurate but gives you a rough guideline. You normally do not gain anything from nodes you do not specifically collect in, but since trade power boosts from fleets and merchants move capital along and have some kind of "chaining" effect that also works "upstream", you can often gain astonishing amounts of trade income boost by sending your ships somewhere downstream of your last collector if that node is rich enough.

[bri]

It depends on the node in question. In the case of Lubeck->EC it should be pretty accurate as there is no other option for trade to leave Lubeck. In nodes with multiple outgoing links the "guesstimate" generally isn't worth the few pixels to display it, especially if you don't have a merchant there to ensure value goes your way. Frankly I'd advise completely ignoring those estimates and just spend time experimenting with the system until you get a pretty solid idea on what any particular change you make will do.

[Fantastic Fwoosh]

You can also force trade power seizure in peace deal demands in order to collect profits from outside of your node, say you beat up Denmark for instance. You could either use their local power from where Denmark's centre of trade is to push, or set up a merchant to collect on your behalf for the duration of the deal.

[football5680]

When you increase your trade power in a node that you are not collecting from, it will just send more of the trade income forward into the next node. If you do not have a merchant in that node transfering the trade, then I'm pretty sure that it just sends it out evenly in all directions.

I can't really think of how the trade flows from Lubeck right now but if it only flows into the English channel and nowhere else, then you would get the full 5 ducats. If it flows in 2 directions, then you will probably only get 2.5 ducats if you don't have a merchant directing it.

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

There can be two kinds of nations in every node:
- Nations that collect trade (either with merchants or automaticvally in home node)
- Nations forwarding the trade (all other who have trade power there, regardless of merchants steering)

Simplified(!) example: Total trade power in the node is 200 (all sources added up (provincial trade power, Light Ships, ...) and has a trade value of 100 ducats.
Nation A has trade power 60 and collects.
Nation B has trade power 40 and collects.
Nation C has trade power 80 and does not collect.
Nation C has trade power 20 and does not collect.

In total 100 trade power (50%) is used to collect 50% of the trade value (50 ducats), the other 50% is forwarded.
Of the retained value nation A gets 60% (30 ducats) and nation B 40% (20 ducats) which can be increased after this split by trade modifiers.

What happens to the forwarded trade depends on number of exits and merchants steering.
If there is only one exit all 50 forwarded ducats are send to the next node (regardless of merchants steering).
If there are two (or more) exits and no merchants steering the trade value is split evenly between the exits (for two exits it is in this example 25 ducats per exit).
Important: Without merchants each exit gets the same amout! The actual trade power of a nation not collecting does not matter! Nation C has 80% of the forwarding trade power but receives as much as nation D with 20% (assuming they sit at different exits of the node)!
When merchants are steering in the node the outgoing trade value is distributed according to trade power among all nations who steer, meaning: If C steers in one direction and D in another direction 80% of the forwarded 50 ducats (40 ducats) go to C and 20% (10 ducats) to D.
If only D is steering all 50 ducats go to D (although C has 80% trade power!) because D has 100% trade power of all "steering nation".

As said, this example is simplified, many modifiers apply at different stages (trade efficiency, trade steering, ...)

For the example think of North Sea as the Node, Scotland and Norway as A and B and England (collecting in Channel) and Denmark (collecting in Lübeck) as C and D.



Edit: If you are low on merchants you normally should let them steer in nodes with several exits to get your part of the forwarde trade, especially in nodes where you have high trade power.
If you have few merchants never place them in One-exit-nodes (there is a benifit to this but it normally comes only into play with many merchants), letting them steer in contested nodes is nearly always better.
Also increase your trade power in contested nodes (Light ships, Markets, provincial trade power, ...)

[Azoniar]

Originally posted by Tulduil Iphukiir:

There can be two kinds of nations in every node:
- Nations that collect trade (either with merchants or automaticvally in home node)
- Nations forwarding the trade (all other who have trade power there, regardless of merchants steering)

Simplified(!) example: Total trade power in the node is 200 (all sources added up (provincial trade power, Light Ships, ...) and has a trade value of 100 ducats.
Nation A has trade power 60 and collects.
Nation B has trade power 40 and collects.
Nation C has trade power 80 and does not collect.
Nation C has trade power 20 and does not collect.

In total 100 trade power (50%) is used to collect 50% of the trade value (50 ducats), the other 50% is forwarded.
Of the retained value nation A gets 60% (30 ducats) and nation B 40% (20 ducats) which can be increased after this split by trade modifiers.

What happens to the forwarded trade depends on number of exits and merchants steering.
If there is only one exit all 50 forwarded ducats are send to the next node (regardless of merchants steering).
If there are two (or more) exits and no merchants steering the trade value is split evenly between the exits (for two exits it is in this example 25 ducats per exit).
Important: Without merchants each exit gets the same amout! The actual trade power of a nation not collecting does not matter! Nation C has 80% of the forwarding trade power but receives as much as nation D with 20% (assuming they sit at different exits of the node)!
When merchants are steering in the node the outgoing trade value is distributed according to trade power among all nations who steer, meaning: If C steers in one direction and D in another direction 80% of the forwarded 50 ducats (40 ducats) go to C and 20% (10 ducats) to D.
If only D is steering all 50 ducats go to D (although C has 80% trade power!) because D has 100% trade power of all "steering nation".

As said, this example is simplified, many modifiers apply at different stages (trade efficiency, trade steering, ...)

For the example think of North Sea as the Node, Scotland and Norway as A and B and England (collecting in Channel) and Denmark (collecting in Lübeck) as C and D.



Edit: If you are low on merchants you normally should let them steer in nodes with several exits to get your part of the forwarde trade, especially in nodes where you have high trade power.
If you have few merchants never place them in One-exit-nodes (there is a benifit to this but it normally comes only into play with many merchants), letting them steer in contested nodes is nearly always better.
Also increase your trade power in contested nodes (Light ships, Markets, provincial trade power, ...)

This! Great explanation dude :D

[Garanvir]

Many thanks to all who replied!

I think I have a better handle on trade now (though probably much to still learn :)

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

Originally posted by Garanvir:

Many thanks to all who replied!

I think I have a better handle on trade now (though probably much to still learn :)

Always good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edjLVFMjPyo

[bri]

If there are two (or more) exits and no merchants steering the trade value is split evenly between the exits (for two exits it is in this example 25 ducats per exit).

Note: if no nation that can benefit from one of the links has discovered said link then no value will be forwarded on that link. Thus you can see some (generally new world) nodes where all the value goes along one link (or even retaining full value despite nations forwarding trade) even without a merchant present. That will generally only apply in the early game though.

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

Originally posted by bri:

If there are two (or more) exits and no merchants steering the trade value is split evenly between the exits (for two exits it is in this example 25 ducats per exit).

Note: if no nation that can benefit from one of the links has discovered said link then no value will be forwarded on that link. Thus you can see some (generally new world) nodes where all the value goes along one link (or even retaining full value despite nations forwarding trade) even without a merchant present. That will generally only apply in the early game though.

Oh, yes, completely forgot that this is a thing,
Thanks bri.

Example would be California which steers only to Mexico (assuming trade value/power there from natives/colonies) until Asia discovers America.