Europa Universalis IV

Europa Universalis IV

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f1reR3d Dec 22, 2020 @ 2:16am
Why Turkish is in Levantine instead of Altaic
I really wonder why Turkish culture group is in Levantine instead of Altaic. It's so irrelevant. If its about the make game easier it will be more weird cuz u broke all the historical reality.
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Showing 1-15 of 23 comments
veryhungryperson Dec 22, 2020 @ 2:39am 
They were put in the Levantine group a while back in an effort to help them expand more efficiently into that culture group like they did historically. It was acknowledged that such a decision was not historical or accurate and the reasoning given was game balance.
Last edited by veryhungryperson; Dec 22, 2020 @ 2:40am
Aaronthelemon Dec 22, 2020 @ 5:51am 
Adding to the above comment it also makes little sense for them to be in the altaic group due to how far away any brother culture is from a gameplay perspective.
Kapika96 Dec 22, 2020 @ 7:30am 
Because they wanted the Ottomans to be more OP than they were before.

"game balance" is the excuse given, but when the end result is making the most powerful nation in the game even more powerful it most definitely is not for "balance".
Tulduil Iphukiir Dec 22, 2020 @ 10:01am 
I wouldn't call it "balance" but rather "somewhat encourage historical expansion".
Turkish being in the Levantine group is a big reason why AI Ottomans used to be so strong (Cultural Union on conquest of Constantinople). (I am not going to talk about player-controlled nations because a player is always much better at making a nation strong than the AI.)
Nowadays, Ottomans are much weaker (partly because their neighbours got stronger), taking away their Culture advantage will further weaken them.


And, speaking generally:
What is Culture in EU4 anyways?

According to the Wiki (https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Culture) "culture represents the combination of the local language, customs, ethnicity and nationality of the people".
Culture groups consist of "multiple cultures which have similar customs, have a similar language or have a shared history".

There is no single "check"where to put a culture. E.g. if we would only go for language (or at least similar language roots) many Culture placements don't make sense (e.g. Welsh in the British group, Basque in Iberian group, Finnish in Nordic group, ... Some would even argue that Northern German dialects were different enough from Southern ones to justify a separate group).
There have to be other criteria.
Note that the example Culture Groups I gave (as well as "Levantine") are (at least partly) geographical names instead of "linguistical names".
If there would be a Culture Group called "Western European" combining the British Isles, France and Iberia there wouldn't be much to argue because those regions are located in Western Europe the the name only alludes to that.

For me Cultures are (at least somewhat) based in history with things like same language, same traditions, same customs, ... making up one culture whereas Culture Groups are a (more or less) arbitrary gameplay concept which exists solely to "encourage history" (e.g. Finland firmly being a part of Sweden for the majority of EU4's timeframe - no reason to put Finnish in a different Group (but enough reason to make FInnish a distinct Culture)).
And most Levantine provinces were part of the Ottoman Empire during the majority of EU4's timeframe (though not in 1444). Even though they don't share much history previous to 1444 they do so in 1821 (at least "is/was Ottoman (and not "was Turkish") for a long time").


I think it is best to approach EU4 Culture Groups as something that only exists in EU4 and has no real world equivalent.
After all, EU4 is a game and each design decision must be taken from a gameplay perspective. If it also fits history the better but "historical accuracy" should always be second to "fun gameplay".

That does not mean that I am always content with how Cultures and Culture Groups are handed currently but for me the system is "good enough" for most parts.
Malvastor Dec 22, 2020 @ 11:29am 
Originally posted by Tulduil Iphukiir:
That does not mean that I am always content with how Cultures and Culture Groups are handed currently but for me the system is "good enough" for most parts.

Agreed. Personally, I'd like a bit more nuance, maybe a kind of continuum where cultures are more or less akin to each other instead of accepted/same group/nothing. It never made much sense to me that, say, Danish was exactly as foreign to a Pomeranian as to a Manchu. But overall I see the point in what they're trying to do, and the inaccuracies that are there (e.g. Prussian being a German culture in 1444) don't seriously bother me.
KillWonder Dec 22, 2020 @ 1:30pm 
Well Albanian is in the Slavic culture group as well...
Aaronthelemon Dec 22, 2020 @ 1:47pm 
Originally posted by KillWonder:
Well Albanian is in the Slavic culture group as well...
and Basque is in the Iberian group
PeGa Dec 22, 2020 @ 1:55pm 
The presence of Turkish culture in the Levantine group is not only a good balanced solution, but also the biggest argument on the forum against any fan of "historicism", whenever another unsuccessful game design decision of developers is justified by "historicism", you can use Turkish culture as a steel argument. This should not be changed, because then idiots will take over the forum of paradoxes and we will finally drown in their incompetence
Marquoz Dec 22, 2020 @ 3:10pm 
Originally posted by Kapika96:
Because they wanted the Ottomans to be more OP than they were before.

"game balance" is the excuse given, but when the end result is making the most powerful nation in the game even more powerful it most definitely is not for "balance".

The Ottomans are far from OP, and they are also far from the most powerful nation in the game. Austria, the Timurids, Ming, and England with the early French PU are much stronger. Others are about the same level of power.
Kapika96 Dec 22, 2020 @ 8:21pm 
Originally posted by Marquoz:
Originally posted by Kapika96:
Because they wanted the Ottomans to be more OP than they were before.

"game balance" is the excuse given, but when the end result is making the most powerful nation in the game even more powerful it most definitely is not for "balance".

The Ottomans are far from OP, and they are also far from the most powerful nation in the game. Austria, the Timurids, Ming, and England with the early French PU are much stronger. Others are about the same level of power.
Only in a player's hands. In the AI's hands the Ottomans are definitely the most OP nation in the game and since I play 99% singleplayer that's the one that matters to me.

I'd love it if some other AI nations were able to outdo the Ottomans and be the world power, but nope it's just the Ottomans every single time and it's boring.
Marquoz Dec 22, 2020 @ 8:46pm 
Originally posted by Kapika96:
Originally posted by Marquoz:

The Ottomans are far from OP, and they are also far from the most powerful nation in the game. Austria, the Timurids, Ming, and England with the early French PU are much stronger. Others are about the same level of power.
Only in a player's hands. In the AI's hands the Ottomans are definitely the most OP nation in the game and since I play 99% singleplayer that's the one that matters to me.

In this patch, the Ottomans are horribly weak. They almost never manage to even take over Anatolia. They get wiped out over and over again without any player help. When they do survive, they practically never conquer a fraction of Syria, Egypt, Iraq, the Balkans, Hungary, Tunis, and all the other territory they should grab.

Frankly, they've never been OP. Even in version 1.0, they rarely came close to historical levels of power. They've always been too weak, and currently they're the weakest they've ever been.
Last edited by Marquoz; Dec 22, 2020 @ 8:58pm
Malvastor Dec 22, 2020 @ 9:01pm 
Originally posted by Kapika96:
Originally posted by Marquoz:

The Ottomans are far from OP, and they are also far from the most powerful nation in the game. Austria, the Timurids, Ming, and England with the early French PU are much stronger. Others are about the same level of power.
Only in a player's hands. In the AI's hands the Ottomans are definitely the most OP nation in the game and since I play 99% singleplayer that's the one that matters to me.

I'd love it if some other AI nations were able to outdo the Ottomans and be the world power, but nope it's just the Ottomans every single time and it's boring.

Not really. In recent patches, at least in my experience, the Ottomans rarely even reach their historic extent. They take a bunch of the Balkans and maybe a bit of Syria, consolidate Anatolia, but reach the Persian Gulf and tend to spend most of the game making angry faces at the equally large Mamluks and Commonwealth. And that's when they don't get exterminate entirely.
Kapika96 Dec 22, 2020 @ 9:21pm 
Originally posted by Marquoz:
Originally posted by Kapika96:
Only in a player's hands. In the AI's hands the Ottomans are definitely the most OP nation in the game and since I play 99% singleplayer that's the one that matters to me.

In this patch, the Ottomans are horribly weak. They almost never manage to even take over Anatolia. They get wiped out over and over again without any player help. When they do survive, they practically never conquer a fraction of Syria, Egypt, Iraq, the Balkans, Hungary, Tunis, and all the other territory they should grab.

Frankly, they've never been OP. Even in version 1.0, they rarely came close to historical levels of power. They've always been too weak, and currently they're the weakest they've ever been.
I disagree. They've been very strong in every one of my 1.30 games so far. In my recent Saxony game they blobbed significantly, had an army of 700k and were allied to Spain and their 200k army. A pretty scary prospect to fight late game!
Raider Deci Dec 22, 2020 @ 11:43pm 
Originally posted by Marquoz:


In this patch, the Ottomans are horribly weak.

And yet every game I play the unless in the vicinity the field between 250-300k army in the mid 1500, far above anyone else besides Ming. If thats considered horribly weak then whats decenetly strong around the same period? 600k? 900k?
Last edited by Raider Deci; Dec 22, 2020 @ 11:44pm
Sugar Dec 23, 2020 @ 1:32am 
Originally posted by KillWonder:
Well Albanian is in the Slavic culture group as well...

Interesting thing about Albanian culture. Back then the Albanian people were heavily influenced by the Serbians and were a part of the Rascian eparchy. A lot of the Albanian lords used Serbian titles such as "despot", spoke Serbian and had were married with Serbian nobility. The reason for this is that with the fall of the Bulgarian and Byzantine Empires there was a power vacuum in that region which was filled up by the Serbs so the smaller Albanian principalities were influenced by them.
Same can be said about the Wallachians and Moldavians. They were for a very long time under the influence of Bulgarians and took Christianity from them when they themselves did it in 864. Wallachian and Moldavian lords used Old Church Slavonic as their Lingua Franca and Cyrillic was used as their alphabet. And most traditions stemmed from the Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity so realistically, they had a lot more in common with the South Slavic nations than they did with the "Carpathian" culture group as they are in game.
Also at that time there wasn't really any strong distinction between Bulgarian and Serbian so for even more realism one could just lump those in a single culture.
To summarise, it's not particularly weird to put the Albanian culture from the 1444 time period into the South Slavic culture family given how close they were by all the criteria that Paradox has given for their definition of "Culture" in the game.
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Date Posted: Dec 22, 2020 @ 2:16am
Posts: 23