Vassal into PU

[Arginine]

Is it possible to turn a vassal into a junior partner? Like force ruler and claim the throne or some other shennenigans? It would allow me to force my culture on them, so if I annex them, I wont have the wrong culture modifier. Or absorb them, then release? Idk.

[Radene]

I don't think so, no.

[iwassnow]

The only way I can think of would be pretty gimicky, but you could place your relative on their throne, release them, claim the throne, and then break truce to get the PU. However, I can't see much benefit unless you're trying to lower LD because of combined vassal strength. Even if you were, you're going to have forced vassalization malus for like 50 years before you can even start the 50 year integration cooldown timer(it requries the union to be stable).

[Neutrino Bomb]

I'd like to know the opposite, how to turn a PU into a vassal to avoid the shannigans of the PU breaking when your leader dies

[Psychotic Fury]

Originally posted by ICON_RES_HORSE Neutrino Bomb:

I'd like to know the opposite, how to turn a PU into a vassal to avoid the shannigans of the PU breaking when your leader dies

Once you get their opinion positive your pretty much set. Just use the support loyalist thing on their vassals screen, and use prestige to drop their lib desire too if needed. Once their desire drops to below 30, you can stop supporting loyalists to keep your money.

Its really just the time between gaining the PU (if through war) and getting positive relations that is when problems occur. Just alt-f4 if your ruler dies early haha.

[Daniel Santos]

Originally posted by iwassnow:

The only way I can think of would be pretty gimicky, but you could place your relative on their throne, release them, claim the throne, and then break truce to get the PU. However, I can't see much benefit unless you're trying to lower LD because of combined vassal strength. Even if you were, you're going to have forced vassalization malus for like 50 years before you can even start the 50 year integration cooldown timer(it requries the union to be stable).

I do that sometimes, place relative, release and claim throne, then break truce and PU. Because PU doesn't count towards diplo relations slots, and I do it mainly when I'm going for World Conquest because I'm not interested in annexing them, PU nations can form nations, for example an Irish minor that is a vassal can't form Ireland, but if it is a junior partner in a PU then it can. Also, their Liberty Desire is counted only comparing their strength to yours, normal vassals compare combined vassal strength to yours. I use this mainly for role playing purposes, I find it more realistic to have lots of PU than directly controlling every land, I make PU this way and conquer all their culturally accepted lands.

But you need to keep the PU nation weak and with not much land before you manage to get back the relations, or else you might lose it, due to relations penalties from doing this. Also it's more a midle game to end game thing I do. Doing this at beginning stages is a pain unless I'm playing a large nation. I wouldn't mind normal vassals but they count towards diplo relations. And when you get to a point that you have 20 vassals, you can imagine why someone would like a PU instead.

Of course, all of this is not viable at all during a proper play because of the mana dump that it is. Like you said, there isn't much benefit apart from what I've said. Mana wasting on stability every time you break truce, and man wasting developing their lands in order to help reduce their opinion malus. With 1.30 update, now there is a trade company in pretty much everywhere, so now this strategy is even less viable, you better off just directly controlling everything and make tons of trade companies, even in Europe.

[grotaclas]

Originally posted by Daniel Santos:

I do that sometimes, place relative, release and claim throne, then break truce and PU. Because PU doesn't count towards diplo relations slots, and I do it mainly when I'm going for World Conquest because I'm not interested in annexing them, PU nations can form nations, for example an Irish minor that is a vassal can't form Ireland, but if it is a junior partner in a PU then it can

Junior partners do use a relationship slot. I think the only exception is that subjects in the HRE don't need a relationship slot if you are the emperor and have passed the Erbkaisertum reform. And Ireland and AFAIK all other countries that can't be formed by vassals also can't be formed by other non-tributary subjects. And that includes junior partners. Did a junior partner ever form Ireland in your games?

[Mikey]

You cannot claim the throne of a subject, doesn't matter who's subject it is

As described above the only real way to turn a vassal into a PU is by using vassal mechanics to put a relative on their throne, releasing them from the vassalage and quickly claiming their throne and declaring war before they get an heir.

As for turning a PU into a vassal (why would you, a PU is fairly easy to maintain and has a chance of being inherited)
There are 2 instances:
1. They are in the HRE, you are the emperor and you enable the thingymajig that turns all HRE members into subjects.
2. Break the PU and possibly nibble away at them until they become small enough that you can vassalize them in a single war.

[Mr.M]

Place Ruler on throne - Break vassalization - royal marriage - PU

If they dont get a weak heir on placing ruler do some "birding"

I did this once as Ethiopia to get 3 PUs with my awesome ruler - so that the AI would develop the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ land a bit.

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by Daniel Santos:

...

...why would you ever get 20 vassals tho.