Is forming Qing as Manchu worth it?

[Neutrino Bomb]

It seems to me that hoard is very powerful, why would you ever want to give that up and get chinese tech group instead?

[bri]

1) free capital move to Beijing and culture change in Beijing
2) permanent claims on all of China (THE big deal)
3) free religion change + harmonization
4) potentially new missions
5) 10 massive prestige points (ok that one's pretty minor)

[Neutrino Bomb]

I would say the loss of raze province ability is too much to lose. The raze ability is probably the best thing about a horde, and Qing doesn't get it.

[Paragon]

Originally posted by ICON_RES_HORSE Neutrino Bomb:

I would say the loss of raze province ability is too much to lose. The raze ability is probably the best thing about a horde, and Qing doesn't get it.

Raze gets weaker very quickly as the game progresses. Early game its extremely powerful, as are the calv-centric armies of hordes, but they quickly lose ground as technology advances. The first 50 years hordes can dominate most other nations, but after the first 100 years hordes start quickly going downhill.

Hordes also have a hard time keeping large amount of land under their rule. Reforming into a civilized nation makes this much easier.

Generally, early game Hordes are the strongest government, but you will have to reform sooner or later for stability and to stay competitive economy/tech wise.

[tonypa]

I agree with Paragon. Horde is strong at the start, but as game progresses and your country expands, you start to lose ground and become weaker. After 100 years or so you should consider changing to new government type.

[Neutrino Bomb]

At what tech in the game does it transform from "early game" to "late game" as far as horde efficiency is concerned?

[Hunkthebear]

If you are refering to Horde Cav, then around Tech 6-17 is "Mid Game" where some Tech groups will have Cav that are On par with yours, Beyond Tech 17 and everyone will have BETTER cav then you, before Tech 6 you WILL have the best cav aside from Imported Ck2 "High American" cav.

As for Infantry you will Always be either Middle of the Pack or Bottom Tier Infantry. So as a Horde you best time is from Techs 2-6, then you will start Struggling from there on.

[Sl3]

yuan is the best choice over all imo

[Darksinth]

Originally posted by KoSKorpze:

yuan is the best choice over all imo

Formed yuan a couple of times as mongolia, but everytime i press that button to form yuan I die a couple of years after due to mandate of heaven government...

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by bri:

1) free capital move to Beijing and culture change in Beijing
2) permanent claims on all of China (THE big deal)
3) free religion change + harmonization
4) potentially new missions
5) 10 massive prestige points (ok that one's pretty minor)

Permament claims on all of China arent a big deal...

As a Horde you can raid, ergo Admin points arent an issue until you get 0 for raiding.

+ Forming Qing means you need the Mandate, means you lose the "Take Mandate" cb and therefore cant take 300% overextension in one war against Ming.

[Mr.M]

To conclude it (since noone really said it):

Hordes (especially Manchu) are REALLY good for fast expansion. You can go crazy with expanding your nation.

Qing on the other hand has mandate. Slow expansion. Bad religion (Tengri is extremely strong in combo with hordes, Conf sucks)

Only form Qing if you cant handle hordes too good, dont want to conquer too much or want the money (since hordes barely make anything)

[Shai-Hulud]

I'm not sure why you think Qing needs the mandate.

If you think mandate is required to form Qing you are thinking of Yuan.

Permanent claim on China is awesome, except by the time I form Qing I have already conquered and razed a lot of China.

Hordes are extremely annoying to play when you get to a certain size.

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by Big Daddy Kane:

Hordes are extremely annoying to play when you get to a certain size.

Elaborate?

And yes, i mixed them up.

[Shai-Hulud]

Plummeting horde unity, untimely horde successions. Microing for loot.

By the time cannons are important you don't have nearly the mil advantage, eventually your wars start taking place in mountains and hills, negating flatland bonus.

Constantly needing to be at war is annoying, unless you are specifically going for the 200 grain province achievement or trying to do a rapid horde WC (which the vast majority of players, including myself, are not capable of).

Staying as a horde is, maybe annoying is the wrong word, but definitely tedious.

[Neutrino Bomb]

I also have to give a lot of consideration to the "tribal conquest" CB, which functions like a mini imperialism CB, super super powerful