Help with playing as Mali

[Advice Dog]

Hi internet. I've been trying to play a successful game as Mali (starting 1444) but so far have had no luck. Initial expansion/conquering of west Africa is fine, but once the colonial powers show up along the Ivory Coast it seems like it's only a matter of time before they declare war and it's game over.

My last game went like this; conquered Jolof, Macina and Jenne. Then Vassalized Bonoman and conquered Mossi and Songhai and myself split Timbuktu. I went Exploration first and set up a colonial nation in Brazil and was working on my second colonial nation in Colombia when Spain declared war along with their allies (Portugal, Great Britain and their colonial nations). My only ally was Tunis. I took out a whole bunch of loans/mercs etc. and I was able to beat Spain and Portugal's army but Great Britain's army was double mine and I got steam rolled into oblivion.

Every time the truce was over, Spain and co. repeat the war annexing more of my land.

So my question is, has anybody had any luck playing as Mali (or in West Africa)? Any advice on what to do, or what I'm doing wrong?

[Omniconda]

try an get colonialism to spawn in your lands so you can grab some south america and get to the rich Kongo lands.

having some forts on the coast before the euros arrive will help in any war by keepiing them running all over then you can wipe them as they land. You dont have to beat them you just have to run wear them down and seige any colonies they start up near you it shouldnt take to much before they cant colonise near you anymore and you can keep up on tech

[tonypa]

Originally posted by Advice Dog:

So my question is, has anybody had any luck playing as Mali (or in West Africa)? Any advice on what to do, or what I'm doing wrong?

Nothing is wrong, that is why playing country in West Africa is tough. You play them until you get lucky and the first europeans around you will be weak so you can take their lands and crawl up into their tech levels. Usually you fail horribly and get steamrolled. Just try again.

[Stormfox]

Originally posted by tonypa:

Originally posted by Advice Dog:

So my question is, has anybody had any luck playing as Mali (or in West Africa)? Any advice on what to do, or what I'm doing wrong?

Nothing is wrong, that is why playing country in West Africa is tough. You play them until you get lucky and the first europeans around you will be weak so you can take their lands and crawl up into their tech levels. Usually you fail horribly and get steamrolled. Just try again.

I sadly have to agree. I had a very good Mali game a few months back, but I only managed to avoid the europeans, not compete with them. I ended up colonizing/conquering a bit of indochina instead and ended the game sometime in the 1700s because there was nothing more that could realistically be achieved.

[equinox1911]

Mali has little to do with luck ...
The only thing that has to happen is that after disinheriting the heir the next one should roll 3+ in mil. Else you start with plenty of dev and no real issues with the locals.
Going Exploration fist is really greedy, pretty sure it can be done but to what avail? I honestly don't see what advantage you get out of it besides the poossibility to spawn colonialism. CNs are worthless for a hundred years and even worse if you are behind in mil.
Pretty much any adm idea group is a better opener. Fighting the europeans is just a matter of timing and preparation. In my current Butua game i timed the first war when castille lost their fleet in some war in europe. Beyond that just get forts and fight them as they land it takes months until they bring another stac.

[Omniconda]

Colonialism first allows -
Many Colonys at once as Mali has alot of gold,
The ability to eat the coast line that will stop spain and portugal becoming strong in your area.
The quickest colonies in the new world
Colonialism Institution so you can keep up with the euros
A route to Kongo for more Expantion
An Acheivment for 4 colonys in South America

you could migrate teh Capital to South America if you dont want colonial nations via the Faulklins

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by Omnious:

Colonialism first allows -
Many Colonys at once as Mali has alot of gold,
The ability to eat the coast line that will stop spain and portugal becoming strong in your area.
The quickest colonies in the new world
Colonialism Institution so you can keep up with the euros
A route to Kongo for more Expantion
An Acheivment for 4 colonys in South America

you could migrate teh Capital to South America if you dont want colonial nations via the Faulklins

Yes all of that can be done but why is the question.
OP has trouble dealing with the euros and going colonising first is probably the hardest of the 'normal' strategies. It is inefficient and makes the issues with europe worse if you go to the americas.
The west african coast line is worthless and once you have it you need to build forts. Also the europeans will be so nice to colonise it for you.

Sorry, i don't see the advantage going a colonizing idea group first.

[gia]

admin wont help vs the euros either, exploration gives cns, cns give forcelimit, so theres that going for it, going on with your suggestion you would have to offer getting a military idea, to compete with the euros

if you go exploration dont go for kongo (although do get its center of trade), go for kilwa, zanzibar is way richer

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by gia:

admin wont help vs the euros either, exploration gives cns, cns give forcelimit, so theres that going for it, going on with your suggestion you would have to offer getting a military idea, to compete with the euros

For the money you put into growing CNs you easily can get regimental camps everywhere, or just save the money and fight the war over FL...
A mil idea would be suicide, mil tech 4 5 6 7 9 all give huge boni you don't want to fight against. Maybe there is a case for defensive and the +15 morale for 800. Still every admin group would be fine and can be played. Maybe except religious and expansion, they rly don't help much.

Administrative: Just merc up.
Economy: Enjoy all that great low autonomy land, cheap army and inflation reduction.
Humanism: Never spend manpower on rebels.
Innovative: What is war exhaution?

To fight the euros you literally only have to make sure you can beat an army of their max transport fleet size in the couple month it takes them to do a round trip.

[gia]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Originally posted by gia:

admin wont help vs the euros either, exploration gives cns, cns give forcelimit, so theres that going for it, going on with your suggestion you would have to offer getting a military idea, to compete with the euros

For the money you put into growing CNs you easily can get regimental camps everywhere, or just save the money and fight the war over FL...
A mil idea would be suicide, mil tech 4 5 6 7 9 all give huge boni you don't want to fight against. Maybe there is a case for defensive and the +15 morale for 800. Still every admin group would be fine and can be played. Maybe except religious and expansion, they rly don't help much.

Administrative: Just merc up.
Economy: Enjoy all that great low autonomy land, cheap army and inflation reduction.
Humanism: Never spend manpower on rebels.
Innovative: What is war exhaution?

To fight the euros you literally only have to make sure you can beat an army of their max transport fleet size in the couple month it takes them to do a round trip.

if you lack mil points you are doing it wrong, none of those is remotely useful militarily speaking, economic would be better than admin though, if only for the cheaper dev (and its not thar great since it aint multiplicative, it is like a saving of 300 points if you start from dev 3)

[equinox1911]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
All the ideas i touched on can be played and are WAY stronger than exploration as a first idea group.

You do realize that military is more than morale, discipline and tactics, right?
ADM: Cheap Mercs are cheap, i do not know what to say if you don't see that that is a tangible military advantage.
ECO: Low autonomy land equals FL, cheap army meanst being over FL is cheap
HUM: No loss of MP to rebels and they can't backstab you while you got DOWed
INO: more prestige = more morale, cheaper mercs and minus WE
All these have clear benefits and if persued can be a corner stone of any nations military strategy.

On the point of mil idea groups you are blatently wrong. The issue is that at the time you choose an idea group you still lack mil points if your ruler is not 5+ and the fact that if you are ahead in tech from 4-7 it is a won war. Sure pretty soon after or around mil 7 you tend to have quite a lot mana which means a mil idea second is a great pick (at admin 8).
There are no two first mil ideas in any of the mil groups that are better than any tech from 4-7.

And just for your information Mali starts with a 1-0-0 (30 ish ) and the heir is 1-1-1 (14?). That means you will have bad mana gain for at least the first 15 years while starting at 2-2-2. Oh yeah and no feudalism.
How you can not be starved for mana with that start i would like to know.

[gia]

mercs cost +250%, -25% is nothing, all the others are equally minimal, you are talking a <1% increase in total military power

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by gia:

mercs cost +250%, -25% is nothing, all the others are equally minimal, you are talking a <1% increase in total military power

You choose what you want to belive buddy.

-25% merc cost and -25% merc maintenance = 20% overall maintenance reduction including reinforcement cost.

And don't forget we are comparing these admin groups vs expansion not dedicated mil groups.

[equinox1911]

Btw, if you get 1 FL out of any group you get more than 1% improvement pre ~1600...

[Mr.M]

Economy is good for Mali since all the gold increases inflation like hell

I ended up close to 20% inflation right now.

Economy and innovative also give military policies. Hard to say which one is better for Mali, one of those should be 100% in tho.

Hard to say if one should pick expansion first. If you want to go blobby you should get it first OR second, if you just want to survive vs Europe get Economy (or innovative) + Quality (for policy)

[Mr.M]

Its also situational. In my game Spain lost their ships and is too dumb to build new ones - strongest force ive met so far was 10k... Even had problems to get 10 warscore for the Holy War cb

If Spain is allied to Portugal AND GB (As mentioned by OP) it would be a completely different story.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1273390357

Since you cant get any european nation as an ally (esp France) i would say its nearly gg vs the three of them.

Good suggestion would be to somehow ally Marocco early on to keep Portugal small.