Timurid vs Mughal idea set

[the_panther]

I am about to change tag from Timurid to Mughal and cannot decide to change traditions and ideas. The single biggest reason with Mughal ideas would be the 25% core cost reduction.


Military:
Both get: Prestige +1, Discipline 5%,
Timurid: Leader shock +1, Morale 10%, Shock damage 10%
Mughal: Cavalry combat +20%, Military policies +1
Timurid ideas are much, much, much better.

Economy:
Timurid: Trade Power +25%, Corruption -0.1
Mughal: Tax modifier: 10%
Again, Timurid ideas are much better, most especially if you convert India to Trade Companies.

Monarch Points:
Both get Tech Cost -5%
Timurid: Diplo relations +1
Mughal: Core creation -25%, Idea Cost -10%, Stability cost -10%
Mughal ideas are far better here, and it is not even remotely close.

Unrest:
Timurid: Legitimacy +1 yearly
Mughal: Unrest -1%
Sort of a wash. Even with humanist ideas, the unrest reduction helps. Legitimacy helps other things besides unrest reduction.

If it was not for the Mughal -25% core reduction cost, Timurid would win easily.


As background, I took:
Humanist
Quantity
Influence

Even though Humanist has 1-2 wasted ideas for Mughals, it was still worth it because of the constant rebel spawns the Timurids always have. I found the 25% religious unity increase VERY useful for the Timurid portion of the run. After changing tags, you will still have many non-accepted cultures. Plus, I never plan to actually spend money to convert religion. Although, once I change India over to trade companies, I will probably convert religion with the TC method.

Quantity is obvious, especially to thwart coalitions. I have yet to have a coalition form despite nearly a dozen eligible countries.

Influence because of my vassals. I vassalized one-province Baluchistan to retake cores from Sindh and to feed western India. Afghanistan gets perma cores on many high dev Delhi provinces, thus saving admin points. I picked up Yarkand from annexing Chagatai, putting me over the 5 slot limit adding to my 3 alliances and assimilated them. The extra diplo slot is especially needed when you lose the Timurid slot if you change to Mughal ideas.

The thing about the Timurid 25% trade power idea is that after moving the capital to Europe, I will get lots of merchants with TCs to steer India trade back home to Persia.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1663346931

[Radene]

It's just amazing when you can core almost anything at a single digit admin mana cost. An extra policy is nothing to sneeze at either, as you can customize your bonuses for what you need even more - so I wouldn't give military to Timurids.

Mughals win, it's a blowout.

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by Radene:

so I wouldn't give military to Timurids.

The ♥♥♥♥ you saying

Timus get +10% shock, +10% morale and +1 leader shock compared to +20% cav strength of Mughals.

Timus are clearly superior militarily. +1 free policy doesnt translate into more strength since it only saves 1 point - it also means you need to actually get 2 decent mil policies first, which isnt always the case.

Shock gets weaker the longer you play, its still a decent boost.

[ConqueroR]

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

Originally posted by Radene:

so I wouldn't give military to Timurids.

Timus get +10% shock, +10% morale and +1 leader shock compared to +20% cav strength of Mughals.
+1 free policy doesnt translate into more strength since it only saves 1 point

That's where you are completely wrong, that 1 free policy means, if you pick religious ideas you can get %10 morale bonus from policy for free.

Mughals are the strongest formable nation in the game, they have also an artilery cost reduction in one of the ages which is OP because cost reduction also reduces the maintenance cost and that means a lot of money which you think you gonna loose from Timurid ideas. You can't even compare %25 core creation cost reduction with anything near army quality or something else since it is an extremely rare bonus in the game which only admin ideas can provide. I don't need to tell you that core creation cost also reduces the core creation time too right?

These are just the bonuses from the visible side of the mountain, there are also nice events when u form mughals. For a better army quality you just need to take offensive ideas and you will be fine.

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by ConqueroR:

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

Timus get +10% shock, +10% morale and +1 leader shock compared to +20% cav strength of Mughals.
+1 free policy doesnt translate into more strength since it only saves 1 point

That's where you are completely wrong, that 1 free policy means, if you pick religious ideas you can get %10 morale bonus from policy for free.

It means it doesnt cost 1 mil point... Which usually doesnt matter much since mil points are abundant...

You also start with one free mil policy already and can have up to 3 active without any bonus...

So YOU are wrong... It DOES NOT translate into mil strength - only saving mil points.

[Winnie Wonka]

Mughals may easely be the strongest tag in the game, because they get the coulture assimilation bonuses.

- Altaic −10% Artillery cost
-Hindustani −10% Core-creation cost
-East Bantu +10 Yearly tax income
-Korean −5% Idea cost
-Japanese +10% Morale of armies

Just to take a few of the 45 unique mughal bonuses from the wiki.


https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1538383785

Just a screenshot from a timmy-mughals campaign i had

[the_panther]

I will be fighting Oriat + Ming sometime soon (probably alone), and the shock bonus will be massive in this. For now anyway.

The free military policy is no big deal since if I ever get 2 must-have policies, I will surely spend the +1 military point per month. In fact, that might really should be in the monarch point category instead of military. I will have these 2 military policies available when my first three ideas are done:
1. Land leader shock +1. This is a no brainer, assuming it stacks with the Timurid tradition.
2. Guerrilla Warfare: + 1 attrition for enemies and 25% garrison growth. Meh, though speeding Ming attrition in a long war would be good, of course.
I can't get any policies as yet, though.

And don't overlook the economy trade-off. 25% trade power with Indian TCs is huge. Although, on the other hand, once you get 100% of an individual TCs territory, the trade power bonus is near meaningless. The Mughal 10% tax bonus never goes away.

I suppose it might be best to wait until I begin taking high-dev territory from Ming to do the switch. After all, the choice never goes away. Perhaps I can wait until after this first big Ming war and get the border with Ming (to reduce mandate growth) before doing the tag switch.

Thanks for the comments. While is it NOT a blowout, Mughals seems to win in the long run though Timurid ideas is ahead for now.

If I fight Ming with Tim ideas, I get 10% morale over 5% discipline. Plus 10% shock damage, +1 prestige, and +1 leader shock over Mughal cavalry combat 20%. Also, the Timurid diplo relations +1 tradition means I save 1 diplo point per month over the admin savings of 25% for coring new territories.

[Mr.M]

Unless you play on an older version you most likely wont be able to get TCs as Mughals

Since you now need 50+% of your development on the continent you want to switch to. Unlikely you will reach that as Mughals.

[the_panther]

Originally posted by Winnie Wonka:

Mughals may easely be the strongest tag in the game, because they get the coulture assimilation bonuses.

- Altaic −10% Artillery cost
-Hindustani −10% Core-creation cost
-East Bantu +10 Yearly tax income
-Korean −5% Idea cost
-Japanese +10% Morale of armies

Just to take a few of the 45 unique mughal bonuses from the wiki.

Hmm, I forgot about this. I will have about 7 individual cultures at 100% if I switch, None of those in your list, though.

You are right, it is a blowout with this feature.

[the_panther]

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

Unless you play on an older version you most likely wont be able to get TCs as Mughals

Since you now need 50+% of your development on the continent you want to switch to. Unlikely you will reach that as Mughals.

Crap, I didn't realize this had changed. And all that time spent getting Caucasian territory. What happens if I try to move my capital to Europe? Will it simply not be allowed?

[the_panther]

It dawned on me during my drive today to Santa Fe and back that the Diwan mechanic goes with the Mughal tag and has nothing to do with the idea set you choose.

The Mughal tag is stronger than the Timurid tag for sure, but I am still not sold on the idea set being stronger.

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by the_panther:

It dawned on me during my drive today to Santa Fe and back that the Diwan mechanic goes with the Mughal tag and has nothing to do with the idea set you choose.

The Mughal tag is stronger than the Timurid tag for sure, but I am still not sold on the idea set being stronger.

I wasnt gonna post about that since it was rather clear - no idea why people brought anything else but the ideas up.

Basically its CCR > anything else tho, unless you only want to play tall or ♥♥♥♥ around. Only exception being if its only 10% CCR

[the_panther]

Well, this is my first time playing as Mughal. The Diwan mechanic is really cool for sure. I suppose I have never before played them because they have these new achievements playing as Mughal but never did before.

I stayed with the Timurid ideas for several reasons:

1. Since I can't get Indian TCs without doing some totally weird things at this point, my grandiose idea this morning to do another WC became much less interesting to me. It has been over 3 years since my one and only WC, and I still recall it being VERY tedious after about 1600.

2. I am now just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around in my current run. My only goal at this point is to take Mongolian land and get the achievement. I doubt I will even bother taking anything more in India (except for maybe the rest of Delhi land and maybe a few pieces to get full culture somewhere) since I can't get TCs.

3. Since I cannot get the True Heir achievement starting as Timurid, I will eventually be doing an Afghan (or Transox) to Mughal run to get that, and I will for sure switch idea sets in that run. I will therefore keep open using the Mughal idea set as a personal incentive to try that run some day.

[Radene]

Originally posted by the_panther:

Well, this is my first time playing as Mughal. The Diwan mechanic is really cool for sure. I suppose I have never before played them because they have these new achievements playing as Mughal but never did before.

I stayed with the Timurid ideas for several reasons:

1. Since I can't get Indian TCs without doing some totally weird things at this point, my grandiose idea this morning to do another WC became much less interesting to me. It has been over 3 years since my one and only WC, and I still recall it being VERY tedious after about 1600.

2. I am now just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around in my current run. My only goal at this point is to take Mongolian land and get the achievement. I doubt I will even bother taking anything more in India (except for maybe the rest of Delhi land and maybe a few pieces to get full culture somewhere) since I can't get TCs.

3. Since I cannot get the True Heir achievement starting as Timurid, I will eventually be doing an Afghan (or Transox) to Mughal run to get that, and I will for sure switch idea sets in that run. I will therefore keep open using the Mughal idea set as a personal incentive to try that run some day.

1) WC is going to be tedious. No two ways about it. It's the most boring thing ever, repeating the same actions in cycles for two in-game centuries. It's always going to be tedious. It's supposed to be.

2) Cool! That means you can say "Well that's that", and then start another game, with another interesting nation. I do that all the time! Are you trying to say that's somehow "wrong"?

3) Yes, you do that. It's a different game, with different goals, which means it's a fresh and hopefully fun experience.

[the_panther]

Originally posted by Radene:

2) Cool! That means you can say "Well that's that", and then start another game, with another interesting nation. I do that all the time! Are you trying to say that's somehow "wrong"?

Ah, but I see this as totally being what is right with this game. You set goals for yourself and then achieve them (or fail, as I have done countless times). Playing fast or slow or tall or wide depends on so many factors. I typically try to play as straight-up as I can with little use of exploits anyway.

I am now playing very slow and leisurely after the loss of the Indian TC thingy. Plus, the True Heir run will be anything but slow or leisurely!

Maybe sticking with the Tim ideas is not as optimal as switching, but that is of no consequence to me at this point. I started with this thread mainly because I was the number one great power by 1486 and felt the world was my oyster.

[the_panther]

Finished the achievement. Two things about this run:

1. The Timurid idea set is OP in the early game. With all the shock and morale bonuses, I felt like Prussia. Enemies crumbled before my might! Ming was revealed as a paper tiger.

2. I must agree that Mughal is the best endgame tag in the game. When I got the achievement, I already had 14 cultures assimilated plus my home culture. And this was without using the actual Mughal idea set. I did not even play super aggressive.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1664501048

Note that Ming was down to 13 Mandate (on the way to zero) and was going to implode very soon.