shock vs fire

[ropestring3]

people say in beginning shock better then fire for generals, then later fire better. How much better is shock in beginning? is 2 fire better then 1 shock at start? when is fire better (I guess with artillery but at what tech time?)

[Mr.M]

mccartneyconnor280 eredeti hozzászólása:

Army professionalism raises discipline.

What? It does not...

[Mikey]

You do shock early on because there is a general balance of pips on all units however cavalry still get flanking and shock bonuses.

Later in the game infantry and artillery combinations take over with a large portion of damage coming from fire making cavalry too expensive for their damage.

[Razor Feather]

187 eredeti hozzászólása:

Razor Feather eredeti hozzászólása:

Fire also happens first, and so units with high fire lower their enemies numbers, and therefore damage, before the shock phase begins. This means that fire is inherently somewhat more valuable than shock.

Also an important thing to note with artillery is that they only do half damage from the back row, so their damage contributions are not quite as high as they appear.

you should run 1/1 inf vs art armys starting from tech 16.
artillery is the only unit to fire from the back row, so saying they only do half damage is misrepresenting their impact. they do damage WHILE your front line is engaging the enemy. Artillery IS extremely Important as soon as you hit certain tech levels.

Artillery is certainly quite important, I was mostly bringing up the half damage because it means that fire generals are not as strong as they may seem compared to shock at tech 7, when the total fire modifier of an infantry with an artillery behind it is effectively 1.05 instead of 1.55, while the shock is still .975

[Jouni]

Mikey eredeti hozzászólása:

You do shock early on because there is a general balance of pips on all units however cavalry still get flanking and shock bonuses.

No. Cavalry is not the only reason. Infantry has significantly higher shock damage multiplier between military tech levels 2 and 13. The difference is at its peak between levels 5 and 7 where infantry causes nearly double casualties in shock phase compared to fire phase assuming that you have same pip difference to your enemy in both fire and shock phase.

[DankDansk]

bobbyandassociate eredeti hozzászólása:

mccartneyconnor280 eredeti hozzászólása:

That's like saying that developing provinces or exploiting factions is cheating.

i thought he said to choose national ideas for a custom nation

Create a custom nation.

[DankDansk]

MrMonokel2000 eredeti hozzászólása:

mccartneyconnor280 eredeti hozzászólása:

Army professionalism raises discipline.

What? It does not...

Oh wait, it raises shock and fire output.

[Mikey]

Jouni eredeti hozzászólása:

Mikey eredeti hozzászólása:

You do shock early on because there is a general balance of pips on all units however cavalry still get flanking and shock bonuses.

No. Cavalry is not the only reason. Infantry has significantly higher shock damage multiplier between military tech levels 2 and 13. The difference is at its peak between levels 5 and 7 where infantry causes nearly double casualties in shock phase compared to fire phase assuming that you have same pip difference to your enemy in both fire and shock phase.

Wow, way to go not reading what I wrote....
The early units are all virtually identical. Infantry does NOT get any bonus multipliers towards damage beyond the tech ones however cavalry gets a large shock bonus AND a flanking bonus which is why shock is more important early on.
Yes infantry does shock damage too (what a shocker....) but cavalry beat them on that.

[Jouni]

Mikey eredeti hozzászólása:

Infantry does NOT get any bonus multipliers towards damage beyond the tech ones

The tech multipliers are exactly the important ones here. They multiply the base damage you get from dice rolls, pips and terrain penalties. At level 3 infantry's damage in fire phase is multiplied by 0.35 but in shock phase it's multiplied by 0.5. That's a 40+ percent difference(rather 40% increase from fire). At level 5 the difference is over 85%. Even if you don't have any cavalry in your army you would still want a shock focused general because that higher shock multiplier means that your general's pips will be more effective in combat.

The multipliers for each tech level can be found here:
https://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Technology#Cumulative_mil_tech_effects_to_army

[Jouni]

I did some calculations and shock general's effect on infantry in early game is a bit less than I thought. If you can choose between a 4 pip fire general and a 4 pip shock general at level 3 mil tech and the army has nothing but infantry then the shock general causes 7.7% more casualties against an army whose general has no reducing pips.
It's still better to pick a shock general for infantry regiments in early game if you can choose but shock general's effect on cavalry is roughly twice as high(compared to infantry). And fire general doesn't benefit cavalry since cavalry's participation in the fire phase is nonexistent until level 11.

[DankDansk]

bobbyandassociate eredeti hozzászólása:

mccartneyconnor280 eredeti hozzászólása:

That's like saying that developing provinces or exploiting factions is cheating.

i thought he said to choose national ideas for a custom nation

No, ideas in the custom nation creation tab. You can choose ideas in the game.

I honestly don't know how you registered that as cheating.

[ropestring3]

mccartneyconnor280 eredeti hozzászólása:

bobbyandassociate eredeti hozzászólása:

i thought he said to choose national ideas for a custom nation

No, ideas in the custom nation creation tab. You can choose ideas in the game.

I honestly don't know how you registered that as cheating.

making a custom nation is cheating though

[Razor Feather]

bobbyandassociate eredeti hozzászólása:

making a custom nation is cheating though

Not in any way that matters. I suppose if you are bragging about your world conquest when you have a 10% admin efficiency, 30% ccr custom nation, then sure, its kind of disingenuine if you don’t mention that, but there are also achievemnts that specifically require custom nations. Its just another way of playing the game.

[Mr.M]

Razor Feather eredeti hozzászólása:

but there are also achievemnts that specifically require custom nations.

...those have limited point use tho.

Going waaay over point-limit is a whole other dimension.

I also have no idea why you guys are talking about and suggesting custom nations when OP asks about infos for shock/fire...?

[ropestring3]

Razor Feather eredeti hozzászólása:

bobbyandassociate eredeti hozzászólása:

making a custom nation is cheating though

Not in any way that matters. I suppose if you are bragging about your world conquest when you have a 10% admin efficiency, 30% ccr custom nation, then sure, its kind of disingenuine if you don’t mention that, but there are also achievemnts that specifically require custom nations. Its just another way of playing the game.

I also should have said this earlier, I have no dlc