shock vs fire

[ropestring3]

people say in beginning shock better then fire for generals, then later fire better. How much better is shock in beginning? is 2 fire better then 1 shock at start? when is fire better (I guess with artillery but at what tech time?)

[Jouni]

You can determine that from fire and shock modifiers which you find next to unit types in military tab or technology tab. Infantry has significantly higher shock modifier at the beginning but higher fire modifier in late game. Cavalry is mostly about shock and artillery is almost all about fire.

[Razor Feather]

Fire also happens first, and so units with high fire lower their enemies numbers, and therefore damage, before the shock phase begins. This means that fire is inherently somewhat more valuable than shock.

Also an important thing to note with artillery is that they only do half damage from the back row, so their damage contributions are not quite as high as they appear.

[Halcyon]

However, artillery also contribute half their defense pips to defend the front row. You should always have a full back row of artillery after about 1600 imo.

To answer the original question, check the military tech progression of fire and shock values for different units. An army in 1450 doesn't care much about fire, for example, because they have no, or very low, fire value. Later models might have more.

[leefnmajors]

Artillery should start to become a pretty intergral part of your military once you hit around I think tech 16 or 18? By that point, artillery has 4 pips in fire (2 offense, 2 defense) so your armies should start consisting of quite a bit more artillery, but only as support or for siege. Frontline artillery takes double damage, so they will get shredded fast.

As for shock vs fire, shock doesn't become useless later on, but it's largely dependent on your nation's starting ideas and your economy. If you get ideas to improve cavalry (the best potential source of shock damage) like combat ability, improved inf/cav ratio, or flanking ability, it can be a good idea to build cavalry up to just under your inf/cav ratio and keep using high shock generals until artillery starts to catch at around mid game. This will vary wildly, though, and is something you only do on a case by case basis. A good example is Poland/the PLC; they can use higher amounts of cavalry than most nations and still field an effective army.

For most West European tech group nations, though, by mil tech 12 you should be switching to favoring fire as that's the first level your infantry units have fire pips and by the time your artillery upgrades at 16/18, you should be going full hog on fire damage with everything except maybe your preferred cavalry units. Some people just forgo cavalry all together by endgame, but I find the bare minimum to use on your flanks to be useful. It really varies from tech group to tech group as some groups get fire damage sooner or even lose it randomly as they tech up, but most people play West Europe anyways.

[Amtep]

Generals with shock pips are especially important when playing hordes, so when you're evaluating advice on that, pay attention to whether the guide is assuming horde play.

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

In the beginning of the game non of your units have any fire pips. So the general having fire pips doesn't do much yet

[PeGa]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

In the beginning of the game non of your units have any fire pips. So the general having fire pips doesn't do much yet

pips units is absolutely secondary indicator, you should always focus on the multipliers of damage that you get with military technology

[KingCobra]

there no defensive and offensive phases. all units attack.

[Jouni]

Originally posted by KingCobra:

there no defensive and offensive phases. all units attack.

Yes that seems to be the case. Don't know where I got the idea that different sides took turns to attack each other. Well here's the corrected version:

• Pips. You get fire/shock pips from both units themselves and from your general. Fire/Shock pips from generals are applied to both attacking and defending. The effect these pips have on casualties is simply the difference between attacker's attack pips and defender's defense pips. "Attacker" refers here to the damage dealer rather than who is considered the attacker of the whole battle. Attacker's offensive unit pips and general's pips have same value but defender's general pips can only reduce the other general's pips.
  
  
• Unit's Fire/Shock modifiers. These are simply damage multipliers applied to unit's base damage which is determined from dice roll, pips and terrain penalties. These modifiers increase with military technology. Infantry starts with larger shock at the beginning of the game but gets larger fire modifier later. Cavalry specializes on shock and artillery on fire.
  
  
• Other damage modifiers. Base damage is divided by defender's Military Tactics.
  Discipline increases casualties by its percentage value(10% discipline does 10% more damage). It also increases Military Tactics by the same percentage.
  [Add unit type here] Combat Ability increase specified unit's damage.
  Land Fire/Shock damage increases casualties in its respective phase.
  Fire/Shock damage received decreases casualties in the correct phase.

[DankDansk]

Originally posted by Razor Feather:

Fire also happens first, and so units with high fire lower their enemies numbers, and therefore damage, before the shock phase begins. This means that fire is inherently somewhat more valuable than shock.

Also an important thing to note with artillery is that they only do half damage from the back row, so their damage contributions are not quite as high as they appear.

You can pull some Napoleonic type tactics with a custom nation, and just stack bonuses of fire and artillery damage, and have armies of 50% infantry, 25% percent artillery, and 25% cavalry and rip apart enemies before they reach you

Napoleon invented the concept of accurate battlefield artillery fire.

[DankDansk]

Originally posted by Jouni:

Originally posted by KingCobra:

there no defensive and offensive phases. all units attack.

Yes that seems to be the case. Don't know where I got the idea that different sides took turns to attack each other. Well here's the corrected version:

• Pips. You get fire/shock pips from both units themselves and from your general. Fire/Shock pips from generals are applied to both attacking and defending. The effect these pips have on casualties is simply the difference between attacker's attack pips and defender's defense pips. "Attacker" refers here to the damage dealer rather than who is considered the attacker of the whole battle. Attacker's offensive unit pips and general's pips have same value but defender's general pips can only reduce the other general's pips.
  
  
• Unit's Fire/Shock modifiers. These are simply damage multipliers applied to unit's base damage which is determined from dice roll, pips and terrain penalties. These modifiers increase with military technology. Infantry starts with larger shock at the beginning of the game but gets larger fire modifier later. Cavalry specializes on shock and artillery on fire.
  
  
• Other damage modifiers. Base damage is divided by defender's Military Tactics.
  Discipline increases casualties by its percentage value(10% discipline does 10% more damage). It also increases Military Tactics by the same percentage.
  [Add unit type here] Combat Ability increase specified unit's damage.
  Land Fire/Shock damage increases casualties in its respective phase.
  Fire/Shock damage received decreases casualties in the correct phase.

Discipline reduces shock and fire damage.

Army tradition raises morale

Army professionalism raises discipline.

[ropestring3]

Originally posted by mccartneyconnor280:

Originally posted by Razor Feather:

Fire also happens first, and so units with high fire lower their enemies numbers, and therefore damage, before the shock phase begins. This means that fire is inherently somewhat more valuable than shock.

Also an important thing to note with artillery is that they only do half damage from the back row, so their damage contributions are not quite as high as they appear.

You can pull some Napoleonic type tactics with a custom nation, and just stack bonuses of fire and artillery damage, and have armies of 50% infantry, 25% percent artillery, and 25% cavalry and rip apart enemies before they reach you

Napoleon invented the concept of accurate battlefield artillery fire.

isnt that cheating?

[Rodi]

Originally posted by Razor Feather:

Fire also happens first, and so units with high fire lower their enemies numbers, and therefore damage, before the shock phase begins. This means that fire is inherently somewhat more valuable than shock.

Also an important thing to note with artillery is that they only do half damage from the back row, so their damage contributions are not quite as high as they appear.

you should run 1/1 inf vs art armys starting from tech 16.
artillery is the only unit to fire from the back row, so saying they only do half damage is misrepresenting their impact. they do damage WHILE your front line is engaging the enemy. Artillery IS extremely Important as soon as you hit certain tech levels.

[DankDansk]

Originally posted by bobbyandassociate:

Originally posted by mccartneyconnor280:

You can pull some Napoleonic type tactics with a custom nation, and just stack bonuses of fire and artillery damage, and have armies of 50% infantry, 25% percent artillery, and 25% cavalry and rip apart enemies before they reach you

Napoleon invented the concept of accurate battlefield artillery fire.

isnt that cheating?

That's like saying that developing provinces or exploiting factions is cheating.

[ropestring3]

Originally posted by mccartneyconnor280:

Originally posted by bobbyandassociate:

isnt that cheating?

That's like saying that developing provinces or exploiting factions is cheating.

i thought he said to choose national ideas for a custom nation