All my trade from Alexandria to Consatantinople vanishes!

[mcv]

I'm the Ottomans, I own most of the Alexandria trade node, and of course I'm sending all of my trade to Constantinople. About 9.97 worth of trade. That's what all the numbers say, with the mysterious exception of the "outgoing" mouseover, which claims all of the trade is going to Venice and Genoa instead. The "incoming" mouseover of Constantinople agrees and says it's not getting anything from Alexandria.

How is this possible?

My merchants are at Aden en Venice (collecting 6, so not all is lost, but at least 4 clearly is).

The fact that everything says I'm sending it all to Constantinople except for the final tally, which says it's 0, is really weird. Is this a bug? Is there something weird I might be overlooking?

And how do I fix this?

[mcv]

Interestingly, when I send a merchant to Alexandria, it changes to sending a bit over 8 to Constantinople, but now it's not getting anything from Crimea. Send the merchant there, and Crimea sends trade again, and Alexandria drops to 0 again.

What's causing this?

[corisai]

Someone placed merchant to collect in that node & you don't have own merchant there to prevent it? Guess you don't have 100% control over provincies in that node.

[tinisiyo]

AIs are playing with their merchants around you.

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

Total Trade Value (TTV) (and retained and outgoing TV) in a node is distributed depending on Trade Power and Merchants present.

There are two steps: (A bit simplified, not taking into account all modifiers)

1) TTV is split between retained and outgoing TV. All collecting nations' Trade Power is used to calculate how much TV is retained, the rest is sent on (which equals the total Trade Power of all nations who don't collect)

2a) Retained TV is split between all collecting nations according to their Trade Power. It doesn't matter if a nation collects because it is the Home Node (with or without Merchant present) or because it is not the Home Node and is has a Merchant collecting.

2b) Outgoing TV distribution depends on Merchants!
- If no Merchant is steering TV is split equally between all exits (where nations with TP in this node also have TP)
- If there are two or more Merchants steering in different directions: Outgoing TV is split in different directions according to the TP of the nations that have Merchants steering
- If there is only one Merchant steering (or several in the same direction): All(!) outgoing TV is steered in direction of the Merchant.


Example (Let's take Aleppo, easier to calculate as it has only two exits in comparison to Alexandria's three):
Alleppo has a Trade Value of 200 ducats:
Four nations have TP there:
- Syria: 30% TP (collects in Home Node, no Merchant)
- QQ: 10% TP (collects with Merchant, not Home Node)
- Mamluks: 10% TP (wants TV in Alexandria)
- Ottomans: 50% TP (wants TV in Constantinople)

1) In total 40% TP are used to collect (80 ducats), 60% TP are used to send on (129 ducats).

2a) Syria's 30% TP equals 75% of "retaining TP", QQ's 10% TP equals 25%. So Syria gets 75% of retained TV (60 ducats), QQ gets 25% (20 ducats).

2b) This depends on steering Merchants! (Collecting Merchants play no role in this!)
- If neither Mamluks nor Ottomans have a Merchants present: The outgoing 120 ducats are split equally(!) (60 ducats each) between both exits, completely disregarding TP disparity between TUR and MAM.
- If both MAM and TUR have a Mercahnt present outgoing TV is distributed according to TP:
MAM's 10% TP equals 16,67% of "outgoing TP", TUR's 50% equals 83,33%. So Mamluks get 16,67% of outgoing TV (20 ducats) and Ottomans get 83,33% (100 ducats).
- If only either Mamluks or Ottomans have are Merchant present: TP of the other nation is still used to calculate "total outgoing TP" but has no say in where it goes:
If only Mamluks have a Merchant steering they send 100% of outgoing TV (all 120 ducats) to Alexandria (even if they have only 16,67% of outgoing TP or 10% TTP)!
If only Ottomans have a Merchant steering they send 100% of outgoing TV (all ducats) to Constantinople.

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

In your case you have no Merchant in Alexandria and therefore get no say in where outgoing TV goes.
As long as no nations has a Merchants steering to Venice or Genoa you get at least one third of outgoing TV (split equally between exits) or more (if another nations steers to Contantinople).

However, once Venice and/or Genoa (and/or additional nations) send Merchants to steer in Alexandria they compete between Genoa and Venice exit whereas you get nothing. Your TP in Alexandria only helps the other nations because is is used to calculate how much TV is send on, so Genoa or Venice or whoever get even more TV.

[Tarshaid]

I suppose that's what Tulduil is saying, but to put it simply: when you push trade downstream, you force ducats to go anywhere downstream, not specifically to you. If you want trade to go in your direction, you need to send a merchant. In what direction trade actually goes depends on the power of the merchants present in that node.

So in Alexandria's case, there is a lot of value going downstream, but if you don't send a merchant yourself, the other mediterranean powers will do it and send the money towards Genoa or Venice (or Ragusa, I don't remember exactly).

[Tulduil Iphukiir]

Originally posted by Tarshaid:

I suppose that's what Tulduil is saying, but to put it simply: when you push trade downstream, you force ducats to go anywhere downstream, not specifically to you. If you want trade to go in your direction, you need to send a merchant. In what direction trade actually goes depends on the power of the merchants present in that node.

So in Alexandria's case, there is a lot of value going downstream, but if you don't send a merchant yourself, the other mediterranean powers will do it and send the money towards Genoa or Venice (or Ragusa, I don't remember exactly).

Yes, that's basically what I wrote it in short.

If it is too much text, there is also this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edjLVFMjPyo

[Mr.M]

If you dont have a merchant in a node tha goes into 2 directions downstream it does not matter how much trade power you have there - without a merchant you have no control over that node and the money will be split on all other nations with a merchant in that node in relation to each ones power.

So basically:

Nation A has 1000 power in Alexandria (no merchant)
Nation B has 8 power in Alexandria (merchant)
Nation C has 2 power in Alexandria (merchant)

Nation A has no control over the trade in Alexandria that way and the ducats are split relative to the power of B and C.

Therefore B pushes 4/5 of the ducats towards their direction (lets say Genoa) and C 1/5 (lets say Ragusa) - A gets none.

Thats why having merchants in such nodes is pretty damn important.

[mcv]

Originally posted by corisai:

Someone placed merchant to collect in that node & you don't have own merchant there to prevent it? Guess you don't have 100% control over provincies in that node.

No, my vassal Beja owns one province in this trade node. And countries like Milan and Spain have a surprising amount of trade power here considering they only have a merchant. As a result I have only 57% of the trade power in Alexandria. No idea what I can do about that, considering they have no provinces here.

Originally posted by Tulduil Iphukiir:

2b) Outgoing TV distribution depends on Merchants!
- If no Merchant is steering TV is split equally between all exits (where nations with TP in this node also have TP)

Equally? Are you saying that the amount of trade power does nothing, as long as you have at least some? That doesn't sound right.

- If there are two or more Merchants steering in different directions: Outgoing TV is split in different directions according to the TP of the nations that have Merchants steering
- If there is only one Merchant steering (or several in the same direction): All(!) outgoing TV is steered in direction of the Merchant.

And nothing in any other direction? I thought the merchant just boosted your trade power a bit and gave you control over where to steer it. I've got way more trade nodes than merchants. If what you say is correct, that means I can only control as many trade nodes as I've got merchants. Anyone with a merchant, no matter how small, can deny me the value from any trade node.

Is that really how this works?

And if it is, why does the game tell me I'm sending lots of trade value to Constantinople when apparently I can't? Why does the game not at least give me a warning that my trade value is denied to me due to the presence of another merchant?

2b) This depends on steering Merchants! (Collecting Merchants play no role in this!)
- If neither Mamluks nor Ottomans have a Merchants present: The outgoing 120 ducats are split equally(!) (60 ducats each) between both exits, completely disregarding TP disparity between TUR and MAM.

I find it really weird that TP doesn't matter. Also, this doesn't reflect the situation at the start of the game, where I do get TV from nodes where I don't have a merchant, and adding as merchant gives me a tiny boost, rather than everything.

- If both MAM and TUR have a Mercahnt present outgoing TV is distributed according to TP:
MAM's 10% TP equals 16,67% of "outgoing TP", TUR's 50% equals 83,33%. So Mamluks get 16,67% of outgoing TV (20 ducats) and Ottomans get 83,33% (100 ducats).

This is what I would expect for other situations as well. I thought the merchant just gave a boot to TP, not completely take everything.

- If only either Mamluks or Ottomans have are Merchant present: TP of the other nation is still used to calculate "total outgoing TP" but has no say in where it goes:
If only Mamluks have a Merchant steering they send 100% of outgoing TV (all 120 ducats) to Alexandria (even if they have only 16,67% of outgoing TP or 10% TTP)!
If only Ottomans have a Merchant steering they send 100% of outgoing TV (all ducats) to Constantinople.

So to summarise: as a large nation you need to use your merchants to defend your control over all trade nodes where someone might be able to pull trade value out of your network, and as a small nation, you can use your merchants to steal enormous amounts of trade value from large trade networks if they don't have enough merchants to cover everything.

I think I get it, but what I don't get is why the game doesn't say this. The game tells me I'm sending 9.97 TV to Constantinople despite the face that apparently I'm secretly not.

This is needlessly confusing and misleading.

[mcv]

Interestingly, this means that the Mamluks, which I've nearly wiped out, are currently saving my skin in Aden: I don't have a merchant to spare because I need them at Alexandria and Crimea, and Mombasa has a merchant pulling trade to Zanzibar. Mamluks have a merchant steering trade to Alexnadira (where they have no provinces), resulting in my massive trade power doing what it's supposed to.

I wish I could tell all my vassals to use their merchants to protect my trade like my enemies the Mamluks are doing for me right now.

[mcv]

It also means I probably shouldn't wipe out Georgia completely, as one of their merchants is currency ensuring that all trade from Astrakhan is flowing to Crimea.