Dynasties in this game are garbage

[ProgramTheta]

There is one thing in this game that makes it absolutely unplayable for me. Even with the occasional absurd dice rolls, and annoying AI that try to stop the player at all costs, I still manage to enjoy the game. Except for this one "feature".

The dynastic system in this game is abysmal. It's so basic and so RnG based that I can't believe it's stuck around. And even despite the basicness, it somehow manages to make no sense from a historical standpoint.

One common complaint from players is that their "leader won't have kids" because they can't get an heir. More experienced players are quick to correct them and point out that the heir isn't necessarily their kid. It could be a relative like a cousin or brother. But that being the case, why is it so impossible to get heirs? It makes absolutely no sense. And because the dynasty system is so basic and dry, you can't even tell who is in your family. You can't tell if your leader had more than one child, or has any cousins, or anything else. And besides, having a child should not be such an impossible task for a non-infertile young man with a wife.

I can't tell you how many times I've had a leader go his entire life married to a woman but not have any children. Wtf is he doing? I know this happened sometimes in real life, but it was very much the exception in the grand scheme of things. Usually the leader had many children, not just one.

And this brings me to my second point. I also can't tell you how many damn times I've had a leader have an heir at like 20, and then live to his 70s but the heir dies before him and then he dies, or he dies and the heir immediately after and I get some random dynasty or even PUed. Did my leader really have a kid at 20 and than become a celibate for the next 50+ years? And he has no brothers? And he has no cousins? He's literally the only eligible male in my entire branch of the dynasty?

And even if you can still claim this is all perfectly fun to deal with and historically accurate, the system is STILL garbage and here's why. You have NO power over it. You can't even OBSERVE your own dynasty, let alone interact with it. All you can see is your leader, an heir, and a consort. You get no other info about anything to do with your dynasty. It doesn't need to be CK2. The importance of dynasties is waning at the start of this game and I like it that way. It just needs to be SOMETHING. There is just nothing to dynasties in this game other than huge RnG and traits. At least let me tell my leader to make a baby or pick an heir!

[Minoris]

Originally posted by Vipic:

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

YOU are technically playing the ruler(s) (less than in CK2 but still to some extent)

Ive heard johan talk about this one actually. It is designed that you are a country, you arnt a ruler. The ruler is just an aspect of the country you are playing. If you were the ruler they would have it be game over as soon as dynasties switched.

That's what Paradox usually says, yes. And then they went with RPG-style events placing you straight in the shoes of the ruler. Kinda conflicting.

[Lightsong]

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

Originally posted by Lightsong:

Dynasties did rise and fall overnight when the actual change took place. Stop raging over nothing. Just go play ck2

Even better idea: I just ignore your bs entirely from now on ;)

lol k. did your fedora drop down from your sweaty brow as you typed that?

[Mr.M]

Originally posted by Minoris:

Originally posted by Vipic:

Ive heard johan talk about this one actually. It is designed that you are a country, you arnt a ruler. The ruler is just an aspect of the country you are playing. If you were the ruler they would have it be game over as soon as dynasties switched.

That's what Paradox usually says, yes. And then they went with RPG-style events placing you straight in the shoes of the ruler. Kinda conflicting.

...exactly. Thats why i wrote "to some extent".

[tonypa]

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

Simply no. At no point in history was it possible to tell the capabilities of your heir before he even grew up, unless he had some serious genetic issues like Down-Syndrome etc.

That is true. So you are proposing the stats of the heir will be hidden until heir reaches age of 16? If you have Rights of Man, Personalities work something like that, over time new ones are revealed and they could be good or bad. Similar system could be implemented for base monarch points too where all the rulers start as 333 and every 10 years one of their stat is either increased or decreased by 1.

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

And dynasties didnt just constantly fell over night "hurr durr your ruler died without an heir, guess we set an absolut random guy on the throne" - which is what happens ingame. In many cases dynasties fell due to weak rulers

It did not happen CONSTANTLY but it happened. The potential of dynasty totally disappearing and new guy grabbing the power feels to me as more interesting game mechanic, and again, it is not really historically false even when it was not happening every time ruler died. If I understand the OP correctly, the main problem with current system is that you can not hand-pick your heirs to quarantee they will stay in power and have best possible stats.

Originally posted by MrMonokel2000:

YOU are technically playing the ruler(s) (less than in CK2 but still to some extent)

I am not, I am playing as country, not ruler. You may be playing as ruler, but that does not mean everyone else is doing same.

In the end, I do not think EU4 really needs more and deeper dynasty mechanics. But perhaps you do, beside saying it is all so terrible and bad and awful and blablabla, can you at least attempt to describe something better? What would be the main changes needed to make it enjoyable?

[Admod, the Equivocal]

"Dynasties in this game are garbage"

Okay. Maybe Paradox will release future dlc addressing this extremely pressing and urgent matter to satisfy you next year.

[Fóka Úr]

So then I'd like that aspect fleshed out. EUIV is no like ck2, but we should get a proper view on the ruling dynasty. I just want to see if eg.: ruler had brothers? does he have a 6/6/6 daughter? or both the ruler and his brother-heir just became celibate?(meaning they have no heir on the others death). Another thing I'd change is when you have a female heir, she marries and the children will be YOUR dynasty, like wtf?! Since iTs EuIv, you dont gameover when dynasty changes, I want the kids to take their fathers dynasty on, like in real life.

[Admod, the Equivocal]

Originally posted by Fóka Úr:

So then I'd like that aspect fleshed out. EUIV is no like ck2, but we should get a proper view on the ruling dynasty. I just want to see if eg.: ruler had brothers? does he have a 6/6/6 daughter? or both the ruler and his brother-heir just became celibate?(meaning they have no heir on the others death). Another thing I'd change is when you have a female heir, she marries and the children will be YOUR dynasty, like wtf?! Since iTs EuIv, you dont gameover when dynasty changes, I want the kids to take their fathers dynasty on, like in real life.

Why do you say YOUR dynasty because it doesn't matter. You're a country. You have no dynasty. You have a culture and a religion. You wear dynasties like you'd wear clothes. Can change any day. No point in keeping up who made the clothes exactly. You just need to know the brand name.

[Amtep]

Children of a queen staying in her dynasty... that happened in the 20th century for both England and the Netherlands. The Netherlands even had three queens of Oranje-Nassau in a row. I don't know when that practice started though.

[Fóka Úr]

Originally posted by Amtep:

Children of a queen staying in her dynasty... that happened in the 20th century for both England and the Netherlands. The Netherlands even had three queens of Oranje-Nassau in a row. I don't know when that practice started though.

But was that practiced in 1400s-1500s? That would make sense gameplay-wise, because you risk falling under a PU, if you take the good daughter event, just like in real life.

[Fóka Úr]

Originally posted by Admod, the Capricorn:

Originally posted by Fóka Úr:

So then I'd like that aspect fleshed out. EUIV is no like ck2, but we should get a proper view on the ruling dynasty. I just want to see if eg.: ruler had brothers? does he have a 6/6/6 daughter? or both the ruler and his brother-heir just became celibate?(meaning they have no heir on the others death). Another thing I'd change is when you have a female heir, she marries and the children will be YOUR dynasty, like wtf?! Since iTs EuIv, you dont gameover when dynasty changes, I want the kids to take their fathers dynasty on, like in real life.

Why do you say YOUR dynasty because it doesn't matter. You're a country. You have no dynasty. You have a culture and a religion. You wear dynasties like you'd wear clothes. Can change any day. No point in keeping up who made the clothes exactly. You just need to know the brand name.

Dude, you misunderstood it. I dont care, if my starting dynasty dies out. I want that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ aspect fleshed out!! You cant see potential heirs, the issue of 'celibate bros', kids taking on their mothers' dynasty, men banging out kids at the age of 60!
pu mechanincs should be improved.

[Shard]

I don't even know how anybody can say that the current system makes any sense. As it stands, your dinasty always only consists of three persons: your ruler, his/her husband/wive and an heir. It would be enough to have an additional tab which displays some kind of family tree. As it stands the family mechanics are so bland and nonsensical. Obviously they don't have to be as detailed as in CK2, but at least having an actual family tree would make sense.

Originally posted by Admod, the Capricorn:

Why do you say YOUR dynasty because it doesn't matter. You're a country. You have no dynasty. You have a culture and a religion. You wear dynasties like you'd wear clothes. Can change any day. No point in keeping up who made the clothes exactly. You just need to know the brand name.

You're just splitting hairs. Defending a mechanic that deserves improvement with semantics doesn't help anybody.

Originally posted by Lightsong:

Welcome to actual history dude. Monarchies rose and fell upon random personalities and temperments of each heir. Eu4 is pretty accurate in reflecting that imo

If you think EU4 is in any way accurate regarding history you are wrong on so many levels. A 0/0/0 monarch would most likely lead to something bad, say a civil war or internal strife; yet that only depends on whether your funny number with a scale next to it is lower than zero. We don't need that amount of detail, but IMO that's a pretty bad way to defend the dinastic mechanics of this game.

[Fóka Úr]

Originally posted by Shard:

I don't even know how anybody can say that the current system makes any sense. As it stands, your dinasty always only consists of three persons: your ruler, his/her husband/wive and an heir. It would be enough to have an additional tab which displays some kind of family tree. As it stands the family mechanics are so bland and nonsensical. Obviously they don't have to be as detailed as in CK2, but at least having an actual family tree would make sense.

Originally posted by Admod, the Capricorn:

Why do you say YOUR dynasty because it doesn't matter. You're a country. You have no dynasty. You have a culture and a religion. You wear dynasties like you'd wear clothes. Can change any day. No point in keeping up who made the clothes exactly. You just need to know the brand name.

You're just splitting hairs. Defending a mechanic that deserves improvement with semantics doesn't help anybody.

Originally posted by Lightsong:

Welcome to actual history dude. Monarchies rose and fell upon random personalities and temperments of each heir. Eu4 is pretty accurate in reflecting that imo

If you think EU4 is in any way accurate regarding history you are wrong on so many levels. A 0/0/0 monarch would most likely lead to something bad, say a civil war or internal strife; yet that only depends on whether your funny number with a scale next to it is lower than zero. We don't need that amount of detail, but IMO that's a pretty bad way to defend the dinastic mechanics of this game.

On God, a sane EUIV player!

[Fóka Úr]

I also thought about a family tree system. It could be just a list down next to HRE/Mandate buttons. You click on it, and you see ppl in line for the throne. It can show marriages with a sigil, since you just make rms on a kings death. If your ruler has no 'spare' kids, or let alone kids, then NO rms for you! By that way, a local noble could assume the throne. Now something like this would be a nice and fitting mechanic.

[tonypa]

Originally posted by Fóka Úr:

I also thought about a family tree system. It could be just a list down next to HRE/Mandate buttons. You click on it, and you see ppl in line for the throne. It can show marriages with a sigil, since you just make rms on a kings death. If your ruler has no 'spare' kids, or let alone kids, then NO rms for you! By that way, a local noble could assume the throne. Now something like this would be a nice and fitting mechanic.

So, it is all purely visual, as you have no way of interacting with it? It would have no impact on the game, just a tab you can open and look at, with names and pictures of imaginary people, most of who will never have any chance to become the ruler. Do you expect to see popup messages about "your third cousing Albert has died during the voyage to far away lands" and "Philippe, the Duke of Normandy has married princess Marguerite of Burgundy"?

Let's suppose such extensive family tree is added to each Monarchy. Would player who looks at that chart constantly, have any bonuses over someone who never even opens the tab?

And, just for math skill test, if your starting ruler at 1444 has 5 children, and each of these children marries someone and has 5 children too, with average age of death 50, how many members would your family tree have by 1821?

[Fóka Úr]

Originally posted by tonypa:

Originally posted by Fóka Úr:

I also thought about a family tree system. It could be just a list down next to HRE/Mandate buttons. You click on it, and you see ppl in line for the throne. It can show marriages with a sigil, since you just make rms on a kings death. If your ruler has no 'spare' kids, or let alone kids, then NO rms for you! By that way, a local noble could assume the throne. Now something like this would be a nice and fitting mechanic.

So, it is all purely visual, as you have no way of interacting with it? It would have no impact on the game, just a tab you can open and look at, with names and pictures of imaginary people, most of who will never have any chance to become the ruler. Do you expect to see popup messages about "your third cousing Albert has died during the voyage to far away lands" and "Philippe, the Duke of Normandy has married princess Marguerite of Burgundy"?

Let's suppose such extensive family tree is added to each Monarchy. Would player who looks at that chart constantly, have any bonuses over someone who never even opens the tab?

And, just for math skill test, if your starting ruler at 1444 has 5 children, and each of these children marries someone and has 5 children too, with average age of death 50, how many members would your family tree have by 1821?

It was just an idea, and I meant a list(up to the Ruler's kids number) with his/her kids stats, marriages and ages. Interactions could be: make male prince a general/advisor, usual disinheritance and it could be more. Since the marriages are tracked, when the heir assumes the throne, he gets kids generated based on the length of the marriage( it could be zero), of course Fertile/infertile would modify the number. If he has no kids, then the spouse's country of origin Pu's the country, given that they have more prestige, than the childless ruler's. If the ruler has more, than a local noble(low legitimacy) assumes the throne.
If you did not marry your kids for some time, they pick sb from the country, thus you have no chance to go for any PU.
The list has the ruler's kids/ brothers, up to 6 names perhaps.