What should I aim for in the first peace deal with Ming as Oirat?

[Server Jester]

Ok now I can consistently capture the Ming Emperor and siege down Beijing however I think I drag on the war too long trying to get as much land and money possible which leads to stuff like
Manpower draining
Mingsplosion rebels showing up too early and undoing my occupations and even crossing into land I annex after the war
Horde Tribals showing up along with other rebels cause of war exhaustion or Uzbek spawning Chagatai Seperatist rebels

So what war score should I aim for?

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

Money, war reps and as much land as you can take. If you are planning on truce breaking, then forget the war reps and take more land

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Money, war reps and as much land as you can take. If you are planning on truce breaking, then forget the war reps and take more land

What war score do you reccomend for the first war? When I try for highest possible the problems I listed start showing up

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

Originally posted by PunishedMuskovy:

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Money, war reps and as much land as you can take. If you are planning on truce breaking, then forget the war reps and take more land

What war score do you reccomend for the first war? When I try for highest possible the problems I listed start showing up

I would try to get him to at least 50 warscore and low war enthusiasm. Warscore from battles and taking Beijing should get you above 50. If you are struggling with it, FlorryWorry recently did a short Oirat game on his twitch just smashing Ming. So you could always watch that for some tips

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Originally posted by PunishedMuskovy:

What war score do you reccomend for the first war? When I try for highest possible the problems I listed start showing up

I would try to get him to at least 50 warscore and low war enthusiasm. Warscore from battles and taking Beijing should get you above 50. If you are struggling with it, FlorryWorry recently did a short Oirat game on his twitch just smashing Ming. So you could always watch that for some tips

Ok, This seems to be the best I can do https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1874474543

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by PunishedMuskovy:

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

I would try to get him to at least 50 warscore and low war enthusiasm. Warscore from battles and taking Beijing should get you above 50. If you are struggling with it, FlorryWorry recently did a short Oirat game on his twitch just smashing Ming. So you could always watch that for some tips

Ok, This seems to be the best I can do https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1874474543

OH NEVERMIND I WONT GET ANY MONARCH POWER FROM THE PROVINCES CAUSE THE TRIBES ARE PISSED OFF

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

That's pretty decent warscore. I would've taken the full amount of money, should be over 3k ducats. I haven't tried Oirat in this new patch but I don't think they start as a horde in the beginning

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

That's pretty decent warscore. I would've taken the full amount of money, should be over 3k ducats. I haven't tried Oirat in this new patch but I don't think they start as a horde in the beginning

They are a horde at the start
50 is the highest I can get before manpower dies and the mingsplosion rebels show up
I have absolutely no idea how RadioRes did so well except that maybe he got lucky with the Beijing siege

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

I haven't played around in Asia this patch but I imagine fighting Ming the first time is the same as it's ever been. It either goes nice and smooth or it's an absolute grind

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

I haven't played around in Asia this patch but I imagine fighting Ming the first time is the same as it's ever been. It either goes nice and smooth or it's an absolute grind

The strategy RadioRes put out is
1) improve relations with Mongolia (they arent a historic rival anymore but still disloyal)
2) Raise Host
3) wait till 19,000 Manpower
4) Declare on Ming
5) Ming will attack Mongolia first so this will allow Mongolia to help somewhat even if disloyal
6) Find the stack that has either the emperor or the emperor's heir as a leader, it will always exist
7) isolate the stack and beat it, this gives the Emperor Captured modifier which puts Ming into an interrgum and gives you Siege and Morale bonuses
8) Siege down Beijing
9) this gives an event that gives you occupation over all of Northern Ming for free
10) This tanks their Mandate to 0, now you just have to start stack wiping for war score
11) take as much land and money as possible
Heres my issues:
1. its sorta hard to isolate the heir or emperor
2.Even with a 2 siege general (from Raise Host, the starting Khan general while almost as good as Skanderbeg doesnt have any siege pips) and spy network bonuses from Mare Nostrum and the Siege bonuses from capturing the emperor it takes a good amount of time to siege down Beijing even after a wall breach, allowing Ming to just siege down my country and Mongolia resulting in war exhaustion and negative war score even after I get all of Northern China
3. Running around smashing Ming units and eventually Mingsplosion rebels (and sometimes even the Tribals and/or those ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Chagatai seperatists) drains my manpower
4. Im losing money, alot. And unlike RadioRes I cant take such a large amount of land and 2000 ducats cause of war score

the entire war seems to revolve around sieging down Beijing early enough to blitzkrieg the units before Ming sieges down my country and later ♥♥♥♥♥ out units to start unsiegeing

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

Your first Ming war, the goal isn't to take as much land as possible, it's to weaken him for future wars. The best strategy I've always used is to take the max 25 warscore of money and as much land as I can, even if that's only 5 provinces. Create a vassal with the newly conquered land and give it all to him. Then immediately truce break Ming. Rinse and repeat until there's nothing left. By the third war Ming wont even really be putting up a fight because you've wrecked his mandate and put him into so much debt from punching him for money he's struggling to field 20k troops

Always take max ducats, it's more important than the land in the first war. It gets you out of debt so you don't go bankrupt and wrecks his economy. You keep doing that and he will enter into a bankruptcy spiral, then it's a free lunch. The first war is tough, the second is tough but a little easier. By the third he's a pushover. Just don't let up on him

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Your first Ming war, the goal isn't to take as much land as possible, it's to weaken him for future wars. The best strategy I've always used is to take the max 25 warscore of money and as much land as I can, even if that's only 5 provinces. Create a vassal with the newly conquered land and give it all to him. Then immediately truce break Ming. Rinse and repeat until there's nothing left. By the third war Ming wont even really be putting up a fight because you've wrecked his mandate and put him into so much debt from punching him for money he's struggling to field 20k troops

Always take max ducats, it's more important than the land in the first war. It gets you out of debt so you don't go bankrupt and wrecks his economy. You keep doing that and he will enter into a bankruptcy spiral, then it's a free lunch. The first war is tough, the second is tough but a little easier. By the third he's a pushover. Just don't let up on him

My issue with making a vassal is that Mongolia is already disloyal due to how big he is compared to you
while improving relations can initially solve this problem, wouldnt another Vassal just result in Mongolia becoming even more disloyal?

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

Easy solution to that problem. Just give the land to Mongolia. You should have been improving relations with him so he should be at 190. Start the integration process immediately. Give him the land. But don't give it to him in the peace deal because it will make him disloyal. Instead take it yourself, and instead of coring it. Grant him the provinces manually. Each province you give him will reduce his liberty desire. Then you end up getting them when he's integrated.

I used to eat Ming as Jianzhou by just taking Beijing and the few provinces to the east and south for myself and feeding the rest to two vassals. I would give about 75% of Ming to them. Just start integration ASAP and then feed the vassal the land. I would have one war where I fed one vassal, next war fed another. Neither would be able to core. In a third war I would take a bunch for myself. Then the vassals would core their land while I'm coring mine. As they are integrating, the integration becomes more expensive because they are being constantly given more land, but they stay loyal because I'm constantly feeding them land, making them more loyal.

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Easy solution to that problem. Just give the land to Mongolia. You should have been improving relations with him so he should be at 190. Start the integration process immediately. Give him the land. But don't give it to him in the peace deal because it will make him disloyal. Instead take it yourself, and instead of coring it. Grant him the provinces manually. Each province you give him will reduce his liberty desire. Then you end up getting them when he's integrated.

I used to eat Ming as Jianzhou by just taking Beijing and the few provinces to the east and south for myself and feeding the rest to two vassals. I would give about 75% of Ming to them. Just start integration ASAP and then feed the vassal the land. I would have one war where I fed one vassal, next war fed another. Neither would be able to core. In a third war I would take a bunch for myself. Then the vassals would core their land while I'm coring mine. As they are integrating, the integration becomes more expensive because they are being constantly given more land, but they stay loyal because I'm constantly feeding them land, making them more loyal.

That also raises another question: What do I do after that?
My initial plan (after realizing how tough the 1st ming war is and deciding that a truce break will not work out well) was to either push into Manchuria or deal with Chagatai and Uzbek after recovering from the 1st Ming war
There also is the option of attacking one of Ming's tributaries and white peacing them to reset the truce timer to only 5 years

[pmpdadypenguinmn]

Originally posted by PunishedMuskovy:

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Easy solution to that problem. Just give the land to Mongolia. You should have been improving relations with him so he should be at 190. Start the integration process immediately. Give him the land. But don't give it to him in the peace deal because it will make him disloyal. Instead take it yourself, and instead of coring it. Grant him the provinces manually. Each province you give him will reduce his liberty desire. Then you end up getting them when he's integrated.

I used to eat Ming as Jianzhou by just taking Beijing and the few provinces to the east and south for myself and feeding the rest to two vassals. I would give about 75% of Ming to them. Just start integration ASAP and then feed the vassal the land. I would have one war where I fed one vassal, next war fed another. Neither would be able to core. In a third war I would take a bunch for myself. Then the vassals would core their land while I'm coring mine. As they are integrating, the integration becomes more expensive because they are being constantly given more land, but they stay loyal because I'm constantly feeding them land, making them more loyal.

That also raises another question: What do I do after that?
My initial plan (after realizing how tough the 1st ming war is and deciding that a truce break will not work out well) was to either push into Manchuria or deal with Chagatai and Uzbek after recovering from the 1st Ming war
There also is the option of attacking one of Ming's tributaries and white peacing them to reset the truce timer to only 5 years

1st war against Ming is always tough but if you took max ducats it should've paid off your debt. I personally would burn the land you took before giving it to the vassal and using those new found points on a truce break. He's easier the second time around because you aren't giving him time to recover. Take money and provinces in the second war, pay off your debt. Truce break again, third time he will be a puppy dog. Keep truce breaking him until he explodes, then you have to stop and do it the normal way because the newly created nations will coalition you.

If you don't want to truce break him you could always go west and snake for the gold mine for some extra income. Or attack a tributary as you said for a short truce. But it will take time to get him to white peace. So really you are only lowering the truce timer by 7-8 years at best, at the cost of having to fight him again to just shave off a few years. I generally only do that if I'm not playing an Asian tribe and I'm not trying to eat ming asap.

But as I said. Ming explodes differently now and I haven't played around with the tribes in the new patch yet. Don't be afraid to try different strategies and start over a few times until you find the best way to go about it. That's generally what I do when I play a nation with a funky start. Just keep going back to 1444 until I find the best way to snowball quickly, before I put in all of the time in a full game. It's my understanding that the northern part of Ming will break off independent relatively early. You could just wait for him to break free and then dow him immediately before he has a chance to get allies

[Server Jester]

Originally posted by pmpdadypenguinmn:

Originally posted by PunishedMuskovy:

That also raises another question: What do I do after that?
My initial plan (after realizing how tough the 1st ming war is and deciding that a truce break will not work out well) was to either push into Manchuria or deal with Chagatai and Uzbek after recovering from the 1st Ming war
There also is the option of attacking one of Ming's tributaries and white peacing them to reset the truce timer to only 5 years

1st war against Ming is always tough but if you took max ducats it should've paid off your debt. I personally would burn the land you took before giving it to the vassal and using those new found points on a truce break. He's easier the second time around because you aren't giving him time to recover. Take money and provinces in the second war, pay off your debt. Truce break again, third time he will be a puppy dog. Keep truce breaking him until he explodes, then you have to stop and do it the normal way because the newly created nations will coalition you.

If you don't want to truce break him you could always go west and snake for the gold mine for some extra income. Or attack a tributary as you said for a short truce. But it will take time to get him to white peace. So really you are only lowering the truce timer by 7-8 years at best, at the cost of having to fight him again to just shave off a few years. I generally only do that if I'm not playing an Asian tribe and I'm not trying to eat ming asap.

But as I said. Ming explodes differently now and I haven't played around with the tribes in the new patch yet. Don't be afraid to try different strategies and start over a few times until you find the best way to go about it. That's generally what I do when I play a nation with a funky start. Just keep going back to 1444 until I find the best way to snowball quickly, before I put in all of the time in a full game. It's my understanding that the northern part of Ming will break off independent relatively early. You could just wait for him to break free and then dow him immediately before he has a chance to get allies

Thanks for the info