Comparing Theocracy to Monarchy Governments

[Der Dutchman]

While I dont have every DLC (no Rights of Man or Mare Nostrum or Cossacks)

I came to an unexpected conclusion based on my last game:

The best government type, not including republics because they're ... well, too hard to compare, is Theocracy.

Don't get me wrong, its not the best FOREVER, nor is it like super OP, but I hadn't ever even tried a theocracy before because they are simply not that many. Catholic has the advantage as a theocracy as well, because it gets an extra +1 papal point (other religions get nothing afaik).

It comes down to this, Theocracies get a ton of 'hidden' benefits over Monarchies.

On the face value a Theocracy gets +2 Tolerance of the True Faith and -1 Heretics, 0 autonomy change, and +5 states.

That's about as lame as it gets.

What isn't clearly stated are three HUGE advantages:

1) It is VERY easy to keep your Devotion at max, so you're basically always adding

+25% Tax
+1 Prestige
+1 Papal Influence (If Catholic)

2) You never lose stability from the death of a monarch. That translates into Admin points and keeping your stability at 3 is very, very, likely throughout most of the game.

3) Every time you need a new heir you select a new one from a list, while their scores are unknown, they come with a variety of advantages - most likely 10 papal points or +50 relations with a random power nearby (which can help secure alliances). Early game 10 papal points is about 5-7 years of papal power, so that isn't a bad choice when you don't need more allies.

As an ADDED 4th bonus, you never have to fear your heir dying, so he's basically a free general as well.


Compare that to its closest rival in terms of bonuses, an Admin Monarchy

You get

10% Production and 5% tax
0 / -.025 / -.05 Autonomy
+ 5 states

And you use legitimacy, which is very hard to control, but at best gives you -2 unrest and and 5% more from vassals, and +1 diplo rep, at worst it gives the opposite. Generally those benefits are minimal since you'll spend a lot of time in the 20-70 range.


The production bonus compounds into trade value, so late game where you are controlling a lot more trade power it may come out as economically better, but early game is where money matters the most, even if you could start as an Admin Monarchy (Some places do), odds are its still not better than Theocracy as far as cash, unrest, or prestige/papal influence.


Add in the fact that if you're catholic, you're generating +1 Papal Point, +1 extra if you manage to get Legate, +10 every heir (potentially), and almost certainly keeping your relations maxed with Rome gives you a pretty certain 2+ papal powers per year, which is basically free monarch points for inflation, stability, or straight up MORE taxes (15% for a total of +40%).

The big disadvantages are the lower autonomy decrease and the inability for form marriages for easier alliances.

However, as catholic at least, you're already at +3 tolerance of the True Faith and likely -3 Unrest from +3 Stability and a pretty easy -2 from Humanist Ideas and its actually pretty easy to Lower Autonomy via the button without any actual chance of rebellion.

That just leaves marraige problems, but hey, nothing is perfect :)

Like I said, it isn't like omg, best ever... but it surprised me how much more flexible Theocracy was over all the Monarchies I've suffered though... not to mention the constant risk of RNG deciding you're going to be someone's ♥♥♥♥♥... I mean union partner. :D

Just something different to try if you've never gone all in for a Theocracy (Not the Pope or Monastic Order, pope plays totally different and I guess Monastic is kind of the same?)

[Céléstin Dragases Palaiologos]

interesting

[Malvastor]

Originally posted by Louisa:

interesting

Dude, this is a 5 year necro. The stuff in his post isn't even remotely up to date (I was very confused to see him talking about states).

[Medicles]

I took it as an honest mistake and i guess he wanted to look at CK3 content.

[Malvastor]

Possibly. I really wished Steam auto-locked threads over a certain age, people always seem to find them via Google or something and reply without realizing how old they are.

[Medicles]

I concur with that.

[Marquoz]

Same. It's very annoying.

[Totally Innocent Chatbot]

On topic, though, theocracies are actually pretty popular among minmaxers these days, especially for multiplayer. If switching to Theocracy from a different government type, you save up reform progress until you can get all the way to Tier 6 in one go after switching, then pick up Monastic Order at Tier 1 and Open Public Elections at Tier 6 (typically in multiplayer you'd be taking every possible military buff available in the other tiers along the way). This basically gives you a government type similar to a States General monarchy, minus the ability to form Royal Marriages or PU's, without the major downside normally packaged with Monastic Order of being fixed to Duchy government rank.

As above, it's mostly a multiplayer thing - in player-versus-player wars, Manpower Recovery Speed is considered an extremely important stat, due to how large of battles are fought and how many troops are lost on both sides compared to single-player wars. The +10% to that stat you can get at the Theocratic Tier 2 government reform, plus the additional 20% you can get with Open Public Elections if you keep the Militarists in power, constitutes a huge advantage.

Theocracies can still be fun in single player if you're looking for a different playstyle - you can stack up a whopping -45% warscore cost versus other religions (Open Public Elections with Militarists in power plus Tier 8 reform "One State Under God"), you can reform into a monastic brewery for the memes, and there's actually a surprising amount of flavor in the form of unique government reforms for certain religions and cultures.

[RCMidas]

Plus that extra missionary if you're going for a One Faith. Orthodox theocracies are obscene with how many they can churn out if they target and hold specific provinces. I think...nine missionaries if you really focus on it? Twelve if you start as Najd, keep your ideas, reform into Kongo and complete its religious missions. A long way off from being an ideal minmax strategy, but quite entertaining nonetheless.

[Preacher]

I highly enjoy necros. Everytime I see one it makes me smile and brings me back to the date of the thread. Of course, people report them and mods take them down. You always got those types of people.

[RCMidas]

Originally posted by Totally Innocent Chatbot:

Theocracies can still be fun in single player if you're looking for a different playstyle - you can stack up a whopping -45% warscore cost versus other religions (Open Public Elections with Militarists in power plus Tier 8 reform "One State Under God"), you can reform into a monastic brewery for the memes, and there's actually a surprising amount of flavor in the form of unique government reforms for certain religions and cultures.

Go Hussite and claim Malta. -10% from a Hussite church aspect, -15% from the Maltese Great Project. Plus you should be going Diplomatic Ideas anyway for that extra -20%. That is a stupid -90% province warscore cost when fighting non-Hussites ie everyone.

[Medicles]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

...

Dude, no judgement from me, because eventually it doesnt really matter, but its quite interesting to me. I looked at your profile and was quite surprised when i saw that you had all achievements unlocked with just 1.5k hours. "Has to be an extremely good player", i said to myself, so i looked at the dates when you got those achievements.

Again, no judgement about your skill or whatever, they are just achievements, but you somehow cheated yourself through them, right?

[RCMidas]

Played offline for the most part and observed a lot of guides and streams before even starting to play - started the research around Christmas 2019 when a friend of mine got the game, so I had some direct tuition and practice there too. I'm not a good player so much as I am a very good copycat.*

Plus, as I've both a squirrel brain and insomnia, and work entirely from home, I was usually running several campaigns at once. By no means to peak performance, but it was enough. I regularly stopped just before actually completing an achievement so that I could go onto a different save, then complete both within a short amount of time. It was satisfying ticking off multiple targets in short order.

*I definitely backed up saves and save-scummed that way though, which is cheating - and the "start a war and instantly quit out, to reload so that the target's allies weren't called in" exploit was definitely used a lot. I figure Paradox break the game enough, I can break some of their rules. I've heard some mention save editing, but in my experience that's an unfun kind of tedious, and you don't achieve anything that way. Arguably you haven't achieved anything away, but details!

[Medicles]

Originally posted by RCMidas:

...

I accept this explanation. There were several possibilities i had in mind, which was also the reason why i asked cautiously. Your comments on this forum were also regularly good enough that you had obvious experience with the game.

[god of being bad at everything]

just coming here to comment, theocracies are overpowered, if only because of monastic breweries, that is goods produced modifier which is insanity, and you produce more from wines and wheat, that sounds like a moneymaker

[Medicles]

Originally posted by god of being bad at everything:

just coming here to comment, theocracies are overpowered, if only because of monastic breweries, that is goods produced modifier which is insanity, and you produce more from wines and wheat, that sounds like a moneymaker

Which is only available when you are catholic or have primary scottish/gaelic culture. Considering the high limitation of theocracies, like being forced to stay duchy as Monastic Order, have no access to catholic bonuses as Papal State and only formable crusader states it seems quite plausible to give them a strong reform like Monastic Breweries, but i would still count the 10% Morale of Armies modifier as superior.