Institutions are a joke

[Jocko]

Institutions are so stupid, year 1700 in my game and Ottomans are still the most advanced nation in the game, The Golden Horde embraced colonialism before Russia could aswell in my game. How incredibly stupid and unrealistic.

[mischa.zehnbauer]

Цитата допису tiberiansun371alexw:

I mean unconductive to technology upgrades.

Best conditions: Innovator Make lots of money if you are smart and put in effort

Worst condition: Innovators are heretics and shunned by society.

Ottomans are not quite the worst case scinario, but compared to Europe, India, or even senguku Japan they are pretty backward.

Taqi ad-Din Muhammad ibn Ma'ruf did NOT design a steam enginer any more than leonardo da vinchi deisgn the hellicoptor. What's more, even if he counterfactual history gave him the steam invention, all evidence points to that his society would not have rewarded him for it.

For the sake of trying to have a conversation among adults, I will ignore the part about Ottomans being "culturally backward" unless you offer a definition and proof. Repetition doesn't add to the validity of an argument. It's like screaming louder, not more.

That being said, I get it that you are more or less in line with the argument prominently made by Acemoglu/Robinson in "Why nations fail" - that inclusive institution stipulate monetary rewards for inventions and therefore progress.
Leaving aside a more indepth critic of their argument and the fact that they explicitely argue against culture as a factor, you need to prove how Ottomans institutions were less inclusive then let's say Austria's and therefore prone to hinder progress.
Your implicit claim that inventors were considered heretics and shunned by society to a significantly higher degree in the Ottoman empire than in the rest of the world is simply false. Even if I were to give you the benefit of doubt, such a claim would need to be proven.

Yes, wide branches of Islam had a violent clash with science, especial with natural sciences and, to a lesser degree, the humanities. However, as I already wrote and you chose to ignore, that took part mostly outside of EU's timeline. To put a complex topic very simple, Ottoman Empire ignored/rejected many achievements spawning from the spread of rationalism and modern natural science throughout Europe. Confronted with several crushing defeats to modernized european armies, especially France and Britain and growing Imperialisms, Islamic Philosopher's had to deal with the compatibility of Islam and Modernity. That lead to some very thoughtful and interesting contributions to fields like post-colonialisms and liberal muslim theology. Check for example Jamāl al-Dīn al-Afghānī discussion with Ernest Renan. Sadly, it also gave birth to very strict interpretations of Quran and the complete rejection of rationalisms and enlightenment. Todays Wahabism is for example, a direct consequence of that discurs.

That's my last attempt to a fruitful exchange of thoughts btw. If you choose stay true to your previous stance, I'm out. Even if you have no intention to study real scientific sources, the least you could do is to check wikipedia page on science and technology in the Ottoman empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_in_the_Ottoman_Empire).

[tiberiansun371alexw]

Цитата допису Khorps:

what's wrong? Athens colonized places of the mediterranean over 2 thousand years before the spanish colonized the new world. so what's wrong? colonization isn't just a renaissance thing

But remember insitutions are replacing tech group penalties was the whole POINT. So really, they wanted insutition 1, 2, 3... 7. They had to name them something and rememebered how English colonies ended up creating a westen great pwoer. Then they figurewd "Oh yeah sure, colonization, totally works." And... then forget the ancients.

[Syvaris]

Цитата допису mischa.zehnbauer:

The first TURKISH printing press was in 1727. There were Greek,Armenian and Jew Printing Presses in Turkey and Istanbul but the Turks themselves prefered Handwritten for a very long time.

[mischa.zehnbauer]

They heavily regulated printing and most importantly banned printing in arabic letters, but that doesn't mean that the technology wasn't known or available. See for example Francis Robinson (1993): Technology and Religious Change: Islam and the Impact of Print.

But yes, it is indeed an interesting phaenomenon, especially since the Ottos were very eager to adopt gunpowder weapons roughly at the same time. That is the main reason why I can't take those monocausal explanations resting on "specific cultural atributes" or "religious fundamentalism" serious. They can only explain the reluctance in the case of the printing press, but not their liberal attitude towards other inventions at the same time.

Cosgel et al wrote a good paper on the topic (Cosgel/Miceli/Rubin 2012: The political economy of mass printing: Legitimacy and technological change in the Ottoman Empire).
In a nutshell, they argue that the spread of Printing Press would have a negative net revenue on the Sultan's legitimization, whereas military technology had a positive net revenue. The mechanism behind that argument is indeed based on the monopoly of the Ulama as religious authorities, that may have been threatened by Printing Press. This is, however, obviously different from the idea that they rejected because they saw it as a heresy or whatever.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

That IS culturally backward...

[of Anwyl]

Цитата допису tiberiansun371alexw:

Цитата допису Khorps:

what's wrong? Athens colonized places of the mediterranean over 2 thousand years before the spanish colonized the new world. so what's wrong? colonization isn't just a renaissance thing

But remember insitutions are replacing tech group penalties was the whole POINT. So really, they wanted insutition 1, 2, 3... 7. They had to name them something and rememebered how English colonies ended up creating a westen great pwoer. Then they figurewd "Oh yeah sure, colonization, totally works." And... then forget the ancients.

I believe the point however is that it is a different kind of colonialism. When Athens started expanding, the cities it created weren't part of the Athenian dominion, they were simply friendly cities descended from Athens, unlike how in the 1700s large swathes of the world were uner the dominion of nations such as Spain and England.

[mischa.zehnbauer]

Цитата допису tiberiansun371alexw:

That IS culturally backward...

Ok, I tried, but that's it -.- Have a good life.

[Shai-Hulud]

Цитата допису tiberiansun371alexw:

Anyone who says "the game will be fun jsut get good, you arn't since you didn't do ironman" should jusk butt off. We people who actually LIKE having saves not be corrupted by autosaves waste our money. And while YOU might have had fun with this game, it doesn't give you a right to look down on us.

I'm not sure you have pasted this in enough threads.

[CHI LONG QUA]

Цитата допису mischa.zehnbauer:

Цитата допису tiberiansun371alexw:

Ottomans are geogrpahically Euroepan vculturally by NO MEANS.

Honestly, the term "backwards" might be appropriate. If they were as isolated as Japan or India, they might never have gotten the steam engine. It's just not conductive to innovation

Sorry, but that's just bullsh**. Ottomans didn't loose touch with technological progress until the industrialization realy kicked in.
Please don't give us those same old arguments of how the golden age of Islam was long gone, Islam hindered innovation etc

Printing Press. You're aware in later comments of the failure to adopt it, with islamic conservatives being to blame, and you know it's one of eu4's institutions.

[CHI LONG QUA]

Цитата допису mischa.zehnbauer:

They heavily regulated printing and most importantly banned printing in arabic letters, but that doesn't mean that the technology wasn't known or available.

It means that they failed to *adopt* the Printing press, in eu4 lingo.

[mischa.zehnbauer]

Цитата допису ETERNAL LONG QUA DYNASTY:

Цитата допису mischa.zehnbauer:

They heavily regulated printing and most importantly banned printing in arabic letters, but that doesn't mean that the technology wasn't known or available.

It means that they failed to *adopt* the Printing press, in eu4 lingo.

Most countries in the world only had a theoretical grasp of Colonialisms, Global trade, Renaissance or even Manufactories. Here I agree with tiberiansun371alexw, Institutions are variables for a general stance towards the technological advancements of the area, not civ-like technologies.
Still, I have no problems with an event that translates the historical rejection into a loss of progress for the Ottos.

Цитата допису ETERNAL LONG QUA DYNASTY:

Цитата допису mischa.zehnbauer:

Islamic Philosopher's had to deal with the compatibility of Islam and Modernity. That lead to some very thoughtful and interesting contributions to fields like post-colonialisms and liberal muslim theology. Check for example Jamāl al-Dīn al-Afghānī discussion with Ernest Renan.

Lol no wonder you're full of ♥♥♥♥, you're a liberal and a muslim sympathiser

Just face it - Islam, muslim society, the koran, Muhammad, postcolonialism are all complete garbage. There is no need for this pretentious lefty relativism.

Now here is a sound line of argumentation :P
First, please google argumentum ad hominem. Second, do you even know what post-colonialism is? Third, be assured that I'm indeed critical towards many attributes of today's as well as historical Muslim societies. You surely won't see me defending stuff like terrorism, religious intolerance in Iran, the role of women in Saudi Arabia, contemporary slavery in Pakistan or illiberal society in general. Islam, like every other religion, has and surely ever had it's atrocities.

I am a human sympathizer, regardless of religious believes. That's why I am strictly opposing oversimplified answers like "Muslims are backwarded" or "Quran is garbage". That's like claiming that Trump got elected simply because too many Americans are dumb. That's also a pretty popular theory right now, especially in Europe, but it's nevertheless wrong.

I don't care about "politically correct" or incorrect, but I do care about giving simple, but insufficient solutions to complex problems.

[tiberiansun371alexw]

I didn't say Muslims are backward. Ottomans definatly are.