Best Nation for Yuan?

[tbub1]

I would like to ask everyone on the forums who they think is the best nation to form Yuan. I personaly think its Chagatai. My reason for it is you can be a tributary of the Ming and just go to town on all the Ming Tributaries. Also its nice having Yarkand as a vassal. What do you guys think?

[Tiny Tyrant]

There is actually a serious problem that Chagatai has to deal with that nations like Oirat and Mongolia don't, Chagatai is the wrong religion.

In order to from Yuan you have to be Emperor of China; to be Emperor of China you have to be in either the Pagan or Eastern Religious groups. Chagatai is Sunni. Not Tengri with Sunni as it's syncretic faith, just Sunni.

Chagatai has to convert itself to become Emperor. It's impossible to convert yourself to Tengri, so the closest Religions that you can use to become Emperor are Vajrayana and Confucian.

Because of Islam's estates it's not that hard to convert, but it leaves you somewhat weak; and Chagatai has strong neighbors who are most likely hostile and waiting to attack them.

Honestly, I feel that Oirat is in the best position to form Yuan personally.

Edit: Actually, Islamic Hordes don't get the Dhimmi estate. Which means converting is a massive pain. Chagatai is actually terrible for this.

[tbub1]

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Yuan I see nothing that says I need to be Tengri. So either you are right, or the wiki is missing something.

[Bird the III]

since your state religion will be tengri your best choice is still oirat or investing in religious/humanist ideas early game and not converting stuff or after forming yuan you will would run into serious religious revolts

[Tiny Tyrant]

Let me explain in more detail.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=913620002
Here are the requirements to form Yuan, notice you need to be the Emperor of China. To be Emperor you need to take the Mandate of Heaven by force; which is a unique CB.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=913620133
As you can see, Chagatai does not have this CB.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=913620271
Oirat does, however.

The reason for this is Religion, Oirat is Tengri which is a part of the Pagan group; so they can take the Mandate. Chagatai being Sunni cannot take the Mandate, which means they cannot be Emperor, which means they cannot from Yuan as easily.

[tbub1]

So just curious, would you become a ming tribute just so you have the ming as a protective being? in my Chagatai run no one is wanting to attack me because ming will help out in any war.

[Tiny Tyrant]

Yes absolutely, it's basically required. If you don't become a tributary Ming will just straight up attack you, and in the beginning of the game that's an unwinnable war. You also need to be a tributary so you can actually expand without Ming getting in your way.

[Kitten Food]

Best nation is to start as Ming, culture shift to Manchu, form Qing and then form Yuan. Right now you can form it as Qing. Its an oversight. :D

[cosmohu]

There is a bug, in the decision about forming Yuan, the forbidden nation are Ming and Qing.
but someone make the wrong tag as "Qin"(Qin, a nation in Shaanxi) in the txt of decision , not "QNG"(Qing Empire). So Qing can become Yuan, but it is a mistake !

[w4ntedm4n92]

Best nation to form Yaun is Mongolia, Mongolia has low development and just a small handful of provinces. This gives you more variety when RAZING AND DESTROYING EVERYTHING.

Edit - Also the close proximity to Buriyatias gold mine and the ease of access to yarkands makes maximizing profits a whole lot easier.

[Tiny Tyrant]

Razing literally everything might not actually be a very good idea here, since you need to have at least 300 development to trigger Nomadic Frontier; and you need as much money and manpower as possible when you fight Ming.

The Altaic hordes don't have Banners, they need manpower from their provinces. And they need a lot of it to challenge Ming. The Altaic culture group is among the largest in the game, you can actually use a lot of the land you conquer, unlike Jurchen hordes who can only actually use the land in Manchuria for the most part. You just need to use discretion when razing, you usually only want to raze provinces that are not in the Altaic group, provinces that are the wrong religion, or both. Razing everthing you conquer will leave you too weak, considering you'll be fighting the strongest nation in the game; at the start anyway.

Edit: I just discovered that Oirat starts with an AMAZING general, he can and will lead you to victory against Chagatai and Uzbek very early on. Yeah, it's Oirat or bust.

[w4ntedm4n92]

Originally posted by Tiny Tyrant:

Razing literally everything might not actually be a very good idea here, since you need to have at least 300 development to trigger Nomadic Frontier; and you need as much money and manpower as possible when you fight Ming.

The Altaic hordes don't have Banners, they need manpower from their provinces. And they need a lot of it to challenge Ming. The Altaic culture group is among the largest in the game, you can actually use a lot of the land you conquer, unlike Jurchen hordes who can only actually use the land in Manchuria for the most part. You just need to use discretion when razing, you usually only want to raze provinces that are not in the Altaic group, provinces that are the wrong religion, or both. Razing everthing you conquer will leave you too weak, considering you'll be fighting the strongest nation in the game; at the start anyway.

Edit: I just discovered that Oirat starts with an AMAZING general, he can and will lead you to victory against Chagatai and Uzbek very early on. Yeah, it's Oirat or bust.

Manpower shouldn't be a problem with hordes with their intense manpower bonuses and if you conquer a mere 100 provinces no matter the development you would have more than 300 development. You should also probably use the extra MP you get from razing to develop for insitutions which would give you atleast 40 dev for each one anyway. You should only state high development territories so stating worthless states in central Asia would be a waste. So what's 75% of 3 development as opposed to 12.

[luckymarine]

Originally posted by Kitten Food:

Best nation is to start as Ming, culture shift to Manchu, form Qing and then form Yuan. Right now you can form it as Qing. Its an oversight. :D

Originally posted by cosmohu:

There is a bug, in the decision about forming Yuan, the forbidden nation are Ming and Qing.
but someone make the wrong tag as "Qin"(Qin, a nation in Shaanxi) in the txt of decision , not "QNG"(Qing Empire). So Qing can become Yuan, but it is a mistake !

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=913858913

[Bird the III]

Originally posted by luckymarine:

Originally posted by Kitten Food:

Best nation is to start as Ming, culture shift to Manchu, form Qing and then form Yuan. Right now you can form it as Qing. Its an oversight. :D

Originally posted by cosmohu:

There is a bug, in the decision about forming Yuan, the forbidden nation are Ming and Qing.
but someone make the wrong tag as "Qin"(Qin, a nation in Shaanxi) in the txt of decision , not "QNG"(Qing Empire). So Qing can become Yuan, but it is a mistake !

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=913858913

now you only need to be of altaic culture which you aint maybe (i didnt claim it to be doable it will pop up than; it usually does)

[Kitten Food]

Originally posted by Bird the III:

Originally posted by luckymarine:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=913858913

now you only need to be of altaic culture which you aint maybe (i didnt claim it to be doable it will pop up than; it usually does)

Its very easy. I already did it myself. All you have to do is annex all the yuan cultures, then make those your states (turn almost everything else into territories) and you can culture shift, then form yuan.

just shift your culture back to manchu when yuan is your nation, then you can also have banners. its a bit time consuming, and yes you have to spend admin points recoring old territories into states again...but you would have had to do that anyhow starting as a horde anyhow, not to mention centuries of getting it finished. you can form Qing (as Ming) withing 15 years, then Yuan within another 10.

its extremely op and nothing in the game will be able to stop you after that as you have the most powerful national ideas along with banner units, harmony and the chinese development backing you up.

[mischa.zehnbauer]

Originally posted by Hotfix:

##############################################################
######################### 1.21.1 ###############################
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- Fixed not being to save new Ironman games to cloud.
- Manchu provinces now start with Feudalism again.
- Qing now stopped from forming Yuan rather than Qin
- Fixed that AI Call to Arms acceptance from Aggressive Expansion was reversed.
- Fixed Offer Condottieri dialog not shown for target player.
- No longer blocked from renaming provinces in Single Player if the MP setting for renaming provinces is disabled.
- Allies that are Tributaries can now be called into wars.