DARK SOULS™ II

DARK SOULS™ II

Ver estatísticas:
Hunubul 9/out./2014 às 17:51
LEVEL DESIGN IS GOOD
I don't see why people tell that DS2 level design sucks. Okay, there are a few weird things, but that's not the only thing that level design is about.

For example in the Gutter, there is a platform with 2 torch, 1 statue and a aprt of the ceiling will fall off if you stand there. If you go straight to light everything you will fall off, but if you take out the statue first you will be safe.

At the beginning, where Pete locks you in forest of the fallen giants, you can find hexing urns wich are good against the lots of enemies. If you take advantage of what you get, you won't have any problem.

As in DS1, you had to take advantage of the environment and items you can get. These are just 2 examples, and the whole game has a great level design. The items are placed perfectly, ants/statues/traps/etc all perfectly placed. The inconsistency in some places, the fact that there are a lot less shortcuts, and more linear places doesn't spoil that.

I've seen a video about how Super Mario (I don't know which, I played only one on PC(the old one)) has a really great level design. When I evaluate how great the level design is, I do as the video does it.
http://youtu.be/ZH2wGpEZVgE

In some ways Dark Souls 1 has a better level design. But in some other ways Dark Souls 2 has the better level design. DS1 was more complex, but DS2 is bigger, nicer, and the little details are better made.
< >
Exibindo comentários 115 de 38
Applay 9/out./2014 às 18:00 
I can't take seriously people on internet talking about enemy placement, item placement, barrel placement... I just look at it and I say if I like it or not. If I find the level immersive or not.

A lot of people dislike the base game levels because they look like ♥♥♥♥, when compared to what they showed us on E3. A lot of places lost atmosphere and make no sense.
Elevators taking you to another dimensions. Places that make no sense like the Iron Keep with minotaur heads spitting fire for no reason. I just dislike these traps that make no sense to exist in such enviroment.

I like the DLC levels though. I love the last one because I feel like I'm really inside a city.
Anor Londo in Dark Souls 1 was really disappointing because of that. First image you see is a giant city. Then you discover you can only access a silly building that you are not sure if it was built for giants or midgets. Giant halls, then narrow corridors, then small bedrooms and later more giant halls. wtf.
Dashiell 9/out./2014 às 18:03 
Sorry what little details? Ds2 has none, it's random mix of stuff that makes no sense and is repetitive because adding detail would be too arduous and it's just tries to cheaply kill you for the most time with stuff that has absolutely no indication of incoming danger, that doesn't happen in ds1 excepting capra boss?
Big maps? They're empty, nothing, nada.
In ds1 enemies were placed suiting lore and location, in ds2 they're thrown at random in vast amount without much sense, most of times it's just enemy that can abuse environment to kill you.
Hexing urns you mentioned are pretty good excepting enemies with shields, they will do next to no dmg to them, waste of urns and what is tunnel filled with? ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ spearman hollows who keep shield up 90% of time.
DLCs have better design but overall team B-itch went lazy way.
Última edição por Dashiell; 9/out./2014 às 18:03
Hunubul 9/out./2014 às 18:23 
You clearly didn't bother using your eyes. In details I mean graphical details. And stuff like you can break the windows before huntsman copse to get light in the room. I won't write all examples for you.

Item placement IS important, and IS part of the level design. The looks and consistency is only PART of the level design. Yes, there are a few more dimensions in DS2, but you can't hate the whole game only because OMG an elevator goes where it shouldn't!!

And I wasn't talking about atmosphere, I was talking about level design. Compared to other games (non-souls games) it's still good. I can tell with the 130+games I have on steam, and more on other platforms (total like 150 games I played 10+ hours).

There is no imminent danger without warning in DS2 eighter. If you think that, you can't use your eyes/ears. That is also part of the detail. If you miss the details, you won't enjoy the game. Git gud.

Enemy placement... DS1 wasn't perfect eighter. Also in DS2 you can advance with any build you can come up with. In DS1 there were less options in character creation.

The hexing urns... you have to wait when they WON'T have their shield up. That easy. It's not the shield that's a problem, it's your timing.


And I didn't say DS2 level design is better than DS1 level design. I said there are parts where DS2 is better. Overall DS1 is better, but DS2 is much better than average games, and not only in level desing, but in every way possible.

About Anor Londo: halls in real life are also big as ♥♥♥♥. It's called architecture. Anor Londo is based on IRL things. That part was really great, especially when the 2 archers came. And you get throught them only to get killed before the bonfire by invaders.
Dashiell 9/out./2014 às 18:51 
Escrito originalmente por Ponion:
You clearly didn't bother using your eyes. In details I mean graphical details. And stuff like you can break the windows before huntsman copse to get light in the room. I won't write all examples for you.
Have ever tried shoting through holes in fences? Nope you can't that's ♥♥♥♥ because even half meter space is jsut invisible wall, laziness at it's finest that wasn't happening in DS1.

Escrito originalmente por Ponion:
Item placement IS important, and IS part of the level design. The looks and consistency is only PART of the level design. Yes, there are a few more dimensions in DS2, but you can't hate the whole game only because OMG an elevator goes where it shouldn't!!
I walking through sea lvl area then go down few hundred meters to end up in sea lvl area? Wut, that affects game negatively when other "open world" games has some logic to area placement.

Escrito originalmente por Ponion:
There is no imminent danger without warning in DS2 eighter. If you think that, you can't use your eyes/ears. That is also part of the detail. If you miss the details, you won't enjoy the game. Git gud.
Oh yeah mr git gud tell me again how did you kow these wall breaking ogres in aldia's keep.
These homing aimbot mages in shrine of amana that can shot from their rendering distance and never lose you, later coming with multiple melee guards in water in which you can't move well.
That ironclad phantom in forest that spawns right in your face and can break walls. Onion phantom spawning above you.
Lost bastilles gank quad before boss, you can kill 2 with bow through window, 5 waits for you in not visible room.
Huntsman copse red sickle phantom spawning behind you on the ledge.
Undead Crypt gank hole, even after you know that there are statues you can't destroy them with greatarrows.
Dragon Aerie bridge, eggs are throws in the way just so you get screwed without warning.
Memory of Vammar giant breaking wall can one shot 1,8k hp lol
Memory of Orro falling giant after field entrance and ofc balista shotting straight at doors which can't be seen through giant standing in way.

Escrito originalmente por Ponion:
Enemy placement... DS1 wasn't perfect eighter. Also in DS2 you can advance with any build you can come up with. In DS1 there were less options in character creation.
In ds2 without ranged attacks you're screwed on few places, in ds1 going only melee was perfectly fine and you can fight almost all enemies one by one.
Escrito originalmente por Ponion:
The hexing urns... you have to wait when they WON'T have their shield up. That easy. It's not the shield that's a problem, it's your timing.
3 hollows out of which 2 have shield up charge at my lvl ~20 char that doesn't have 100% shield nor stamina to keep it up has to wait eternity, k
Foe (Banido(a)) 9/out./2014 às 19:01 
dat video....






was really good!
Darkeshi 9/out./2014 às 19:34 
earthen peak -> iron keep
ZeroKelvin 9/out./2014 às 20:39 
You have posted too greedily and too deep. The Demons' Souls fanboys are lurking just beyond the edge of your vision.

(I like Dark Souls II also).
Mattyah 9/out./2014 às 20:49 
Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Have ever tried shoting through holes in fences? Nope you can't that's ♥♥♥♥ because even half meter space is jsut invisible wall, laziness at it's finest that wasn't happening in DS1.
Umm.. yes it was. Sadly, it wasn't fixed.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Oh yeah mr git gud tell me again how did you kow these wall breaking ogres in aldia's keep
He probably explored the room to the right and saw one ogre through the open door and the second one is in an obvious trap area that even baits you with an item in the corner, so that you avoid the bulk of the damage.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
These homing aimbot mages in shrine of amana that can shot from their rendering distance and never lose you, later coming with multiple melee guards in water in which you can't move well.
You can roll through the spells and there's plenty of dry land to fight melee dudes on equal footing.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
That ironclad phantom in forest that spawns right in your face and can break walls. Onion phantom spawning above you.
Roll away from the turtle, use your hearing for onion fella. When they spawn, you can hear them and should immediately just look around.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Lost bastilles gank quad before boss, you can kill 2 with bow through window, 5 waits for you in not visible room.
Yes, they should clearly wear bullseye shirts and From should have included a radar, motion tracker and just give us an arena where all the baddies are visible from the start.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Huntsman copse red sickle phantom spawning behind you on the ledge.
Again, listen and look around.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Undead Crypt gank hole, even after you know that there are statues you can't destroy them with greatarrows.
You mean the easily escapable room with an obvious route not blocked by gravestones? And why should they be destructible with arrows?

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Dragon Aerie bridge, eggs are throws in the way just so you get screwed without warning.
There is a route that requires no egg-breaking.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Memory of Vammar giant breaking wall can one shot 1,8k hp lol
You mean that giant that breaks the door just after you talk to the npc when you're at a safe distance from said door OR you should be aware that the giant is there on ng+?

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
Memory of Orro falling giant after field entrance and ofc balista shotting straight at doors which can't be seen through giant standing in way.
Well someone yoloed onto the battlefield with their guard down. And there's more than one way to go there.

Escrito originalmente por Dashiell:
in ds2 without ranged attacks you're screwed on few places, in ds1 going only melee was perfectly fine and you can fight almost all enemies one by one.
1. you're wrong, it can be more difficult, but certainly nowhere near impossible
2. DS2 forces you to switch tactics and adapt. Much better approach than "anything can be beaten with any build."
Última edição por Mattyah; 9/out./2014 às 20:51
Lugez 9/out./2014 às 21:00 
it's not bad, but you can tell it took a back seat compared to the past two entries.

demon's souls level/art design is borderline masterful imo, and dark souls was also extremely good. dark souls 2 just clearly isn't up to par. it sucks that its being compared to two other REALLY good games, but thats what you get when you take the name.
Nicholas Steel 9/out./2014 às 21:29 
I find item placement and the items themselves in general, inferior to Dark Souls 1 (Most of them even have very little details provided about them in the items description).

I find the armour/weapons inferior to Dark Souls 1 (From a melee/tank PvE perspective).

Level design, aka design that has meaningful impact on how you play, is as far as I can tell, inferior to Dark Souls 1 as well. Yes you can break windows and stuff to let light in, you can light lanterns to brighten the environment, yes you can open shortcuts etc. but all of those things are meaningless and not properly utilized mechanics in the level designs.

Because you can warp from bonfire to bonfire straight away the logical design choice would be to NOT have bonfires immediately after a shortcut, otherwise there isn't any reason to open the shortcut (Unless you're a fan of PvP and the shortcut somehow makes it easier to gain an advantage/prevent a disadvantage during PvP). Instead you'd space the bonfires out so that the player has to face at least 2 challenges to reach the next bonfire with a unlockable shortcut skipping the first challenge.

Level placement makes no sense in Dark Souls 2.

It is much easier to encounter a situation where you can see an enemy but be unable to damage it with a ranged attack in Dark Souls 2 than in Dark Souls 1 (Both games suffer this problem, it's just more common in Dark Souls 2)

I don't believe I ever encountered poor terrain collision detection in Dark Souls 1 but again, I mainly played melee and not ranged.

Enemy attack collision detection is pretty bad in Dark Souls 2, especially compared to Dark Souls 1.

Dark Souls 2 still suffers double durability loss and uber fast enemies on the PC version with no indication of it ever getting fixed, the work-around's can supposedly get you soft-banned.

Dark Souls 2 ruins PvP potential during your first time through the game which makes the hostile world feel pretty sterile and does not incentivize continued playing of the game after you've beaten it once (Because nothing gives the impression it will be different aside from PvE being harder).

Dark Souls 2's match making system is more reliable at connecting players with other players (For co-op/PvP).

Dark Souls 2 has an inferior system for matching players of a similar skill with each other, the system can not keep a lid on inflation and uncontrolled inflation results in nothing but generic cookie cutter PvP builds/builds that excel at everything. This system also makes it hard to find co-op buddies for various parts of the game because players can not provide indefinite co-op for a specific place due to the inflation issue.

Bosses I felt are inferior for a melee character in Dark Souls 2. They just weren't very well balanced for it though some of them were pretty good like The Pursuer
DarthDault 9/out./2014 às 22:43 
The DLC's are all absolutely gorgeous. I am so glad I got the seasons pass because they really didn't mess around with the new dlc. I find their design very unique. So different. But not too much. Just enough where you play 1&2 DS and you're just like... hell yeah. I only get this from dark souls. haha
Kirmukarmu 9/out./2014 às 23:06 
Yahtzee Croshaw said it well, in DS1 it seemed that the developers first made the levels and then started thinking what they should do with it, while in DS2 they clearly designed the levels around gameplay rather than other way around.
Última edição por Kirmukarmu; 9/out./2014 às 23:06
45 9/out./2014 às 23:29 
It's straight lines with decorations. Nothing feels unique mostly because every area is flooded with generic bipedal, humanoid enemies. But also because enemies can be copy and pasted into any area the devs please and you'll notice nothing out of place anyway.

In Dark Souls 1 the enviroments felt like places not paths. They were filled with unique enemies, items and gimmicks that reflected the area you were in. So many interesting enemies that were made to so that 5 could spawn in a single location and wouldn't be seen anywhere else. You knew those were creatures native to whatever location that was.

People really complained when dark souls 1 re-hashed the asylum demon 3 times because there it was such a rare case. In dark souls 2 every enemy is re-used a thousand times over and there's hardly any creature or monster based enemies.

The only level in the game that even remotely resembles the original level design is forest of the fallen giants where you unlock 2 shortcuts back to the cardinal tower bonfire. The rest are just lines with bonfires being a dotted path to the end.
Disko Lemonade 10/out./2014 às 0:09 
Windmill elevator going up into a volcano.


...no.
45 10/out./2014 às 0:16 
Escrito originalmente por Disko Lemonade:
Windmill elevator going up into a volcano.


...no.

That's not a level design complaint, that's the nitpicking thing people keep pointing out not realizing that it's probably intentional. If you want to discuss that go here:

http://fextralife.com/iron-keep-a-castle-in-the-clouds/
< >
Exibindo comentários 115 de 38
Por página: 1530 50

Publicado em: 9/out./2014 às 17:51
Mensagens: 38