I believe we've been lied to about the Undead Curse. (Lore and experience analysis thread.)

[Ruego Al Alba]

And I believe this because of how inconsistent it is and how different it is from the Undead Curse in Dark Souls.

1. The transition from Humanity Sprites to Human Effigies (mesh dolls). Their end function the exact same, except that Soft Humanity is no longer a stat.

2. This curse causes memory loss, yet it did not do so in Dark Souls.

3. Lenigrast is the only Hollow that speaks to you like he's fully human. He also suffers no memory loss. Lucatiel suffers extremely heavy memory loss and has gangrene on her left eye. Some say that the growth is her Darksign, but this is not true as we've already seen what the Darksign looks like both in the introduction cinematic and the player character when they are Hollow.

4. Hollows can be human again. Proof is in our player character, who is referred to Aldia and Navlaan as a Hollow or Young Hollow. A simple use of the Human Effigy turns us back from Hollow to Human.

5. The Undead of Drangleic who are not the player character seem to be completely ignorant of what the Human Effigy does or about its very existence. If Things Betwixt is the crossroads and how all Undead come to be in Drangleic, every one of them should have been told by the three Firekeepers of what the Human Effigy does. It is unlikely that the Undead Curse has robbed the Undead of Drangleic of that memory.

6. The Undead Curse does not change in any way from absorbing souls. Those who die still go Hollow no matter how many souls they have absorbed.

[Rekien]

Escrito originalmente por Creamy Goodness:

The only SOLID consistency with the undead curse that i can see between both Dark Souls games is Seigmayer and a few people in Majula: where once their wish/dream has come to fruition, the curse seems to develop quicker.

Seigmayer (if you complete his questline) after finding his daughter and reuniting them at Ash Lake will go hollow and be found dead on the ground because his daughter had to kill him. (a rather fast transformation indeed, i'm not sure that the curse could be an instant thing).

Maughlin (once his dream of becoming rich comes true thanks to our hapless hero) starts the memory loss, same can be said about Cale (once you light all flames on his floor map) and Lucatiel (once you get to Aldias Keep where her brother invades you, but her wish/dream doesn't seem to be only finding her brother but to have a friend too since her mind starts to go each step of her quest) as well.

While it is a long shot, and i'm sure somebody will correct my logic in my connection between all this, i feel that if your wishes don't come true you can retain your..mind and slow the curse.

You helping people is extremely bittersweet.

Yep, by helping them you take 'their goal'...making them hollow, but not helping them may lead to them giving in to despair, and eventualy losing their minds, and thus, eventualy also going hollow.....soo yeah..they are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ either way.

[Ruego Al Alba]

Escrito originalmente por Creamy Goodness:

The only SOLID consistency with the undead curse that i can see between both Dark Souls games is Seigmayer and a few people in Majula: where once their wish/dream has come to fruition, the curse seems to develop quicker.

Seigmayer (if you complete his questline) after finding his daughter and reuniting them at Ash Lake will go hollow and be found dead on the ground because his daughter had to kill him. (a rather fast transformation indeed, i'm not sure that the curse could be an instant thing).

Maughlin (once his dream of becoming rich comes true thanks to our hapless hero) starts the memory loss, same can be said about Cale (once you light all flames on his floor map) and Lucatiel (once you get to Aldias Keep where her brother invades you, but her wish/dream doesn't seem to be only finding her brother but to have a friend too since her mind starts to go each step of her quest) as well.

While it is a long shot, and i'm sure somebody will correct my logic in my connection between all this, i feel that if your wishes don't come true you can retain your..mind and slow the curse.

You helping people is extremely bittersweet.

This is why I think "the curse can be traced back to the soul" isn't entirely correct. I personally think that this time around the Undead Curse is a hex that is set to mimic the original Undead Curse. The description and application of the Dead Again hex makes me believe this while also looking at the word "hex" in another culture that has magic. Witch doctors who partake in malpractice are said to cast hexes that curse their victims. This Undead Curse could be just that, and its effects vary from human to human. This is why I think it doesn't bother the player character to go Hollow at all, for they don't feast upon the souls of men (as said by the Firekeeper in Things Betwixt), or why Lenigrast is perfectly normal compared to everyone else, or why non-Hollow Undead can't see the "ugly" side of Navlaan.

I think the Undead Curse itself is merely a fabrication and is the means to some major player's end.

[Sicris]

Escrito originalmente por Rekien:

Lucatiel begins to despair after talking to you...just like siegmier did after you helped him....and no it actualy happened quite fast in the first DS1, that guy in firelink shrine after he tryes to deal with 'the smell', to the piromancer after he whent to blightown, to that sorcerer aprendice when he goes after his master....his master after he finds the duke's archives.....as for solaire, he never became hollow, he just went mad because of the sunbug, but he still has his human aparance.....Point is, the curse begin doing its work on you after you give up hope, and give in to despair.

Not talking about dispair, that stayed the same; it's the memory loss thing they changed. The memory loss was never that fast in dark souls 1. The only one that had problems with his memories instantly was Big Hat Logan and even then it was leaning towards the fault of the archives rather than the curse.

The crestfallen warrior did fall into dispair, but he did not lose his memories during the course of the game until after he was already hollow.

And yes solare never became hollow but he was undead, and he had no memory loss either.

The point was that they changed the nature of the curse when making the second game which is why there are inconsistencies.

[Rekien]

Escrito originalmente por Sicris:

Escrito originalmente por Rekien:

Lucatiel begins to despair after talking to you...just like siegmier did after you helped him....and no it actualy happened quite fast in the first DS1, that guy in firelink shrine after he tryes to deal with 'the smell', to the piromancer after he whent to blightown, to that sorcerer aprendice when he goes after his master....his master after he finds the duke's archives.....as for solaire, he never became hollow, he just went mad because of the sunbug, but he still has his human aparance.....Point is, the curse begin doing its work on you after you give up hope, and give in to despair.

Not talking about dispair, that stayed the same; it's the memory loss thing they changed. The memory loss was never that fast in dark souls 1. The only one that had problems with his memories instantly was Big Hat Logan and even then it was leaning towards the fault of the archives rather than the curse.

The crestfallen warrior did fall into dispair, but he did not lose his memories during the course of the game until after he was already hollow.

And yes solare never became hollow but he was undead, and he had no memory loss either.

The point was that they changed the nature of the curse when making the second game which is why there are inconsistencies.

Sorry, i got your point kinda late, the curse indeed have some changes.

Well, yes, the memory loss in DS1, seems almost instant, but it also dosent seem to afect everyone equaly...curse has indeed change, in DS1 some npcs seem to go mad after being hollow for too long(some of the merchants, just like that hag in ds2), but neither of them had any memory loss , is no surprise, the humans themselves went to some changes, being the 'they are not one with the dark' the most intriguing part...if they are not one with the dark anymore, how they can remain human, if humanity itself is a part of the dark soul? and what is human effigy exactly? maybe as a fake copy of humanity, it does prevent the hollowing state, but its not as effective as humanity was, and thus the side effect is the gradual memory loss?

EDIT= As for 'someone started the curse', yes someone did, Gwin by linking the flame, but the idea of someone else changing it in order to keep the cicle going is not bad at all, may even be the truth....may Velka have something to do with it? and the thing that most intrigued me is...what hell happened with the giants? they where like gods in DS1, now they are some kind of trees.

[ShinkuTear]

Escrito originalmente por Creamy Goodness:

The only SOLID consistency with the undead curse that i can see between both Dark Souls games is Seigmayer and a few people in Majula: where once their wish/dream has come to fruition, the curse seems to develop quicker.

As it felt in Dark Souls 1, it is less about dreams coming true, and more about losing a purpose to strive for.

Maughlin came to Drangleic to get rich, that is his purpose, the one thing that his will clings to, to keep him going. Once he *is* rich, he no longer has a purpose, no longer has something to strive for, and the curse eats away at him like a hungry wolf.

Lenigrast's daughter wandered into Drangleic without much purpose, simply to find and trade stones of various types. Her purpose was only ever simple trading, and I don't think her will is very potent, so hollowing has managed to claim more of her memories. Lenigrast seems like a very strong willed person, but with his hollowed body, perhaps his purpose is lacking.

In DkS1, it was mentioned that The Player/Chosen Undead won't ever fully hollow because that is how huge their purpose is and how strong their will to carry it out is.

Various NPCs, such as Reah and Logan, came to Lordran for a purpose. Once that purpose is fulfilled... the next time you meet them, they have gone completely insane and berserk, as their hollowing has completed due to a lack of purpose to strive for. Others might hollow because they come to believe their purpose for being in Lordran is impossible, and their will to go on breaks.

[Shifty Mario]

Escrito originalmente por ShinkuTear:

Various NPCs, such as Reah and Logan, came to Lordran for a purpose. Once that purpose is fulfilled... the next time you meet them, they have gone completely insane and berserk, as their hollowing has completed due to a lack of purpose to strive for. Others might hollow because they come to believe their purpose for being in Lordran is impossible, and their will to go on breaks.

That doesn't explain why Reah is both attacking me in Firelink and still praying at parish.

If that's the reason why, would that explain why crestfallen merchant going hollow was removed?

[Sicris]

Escrito originalmente por Shifty Mario:

That doesn't explain why Reah is both attacking me in Firelink and still praying at parish.

If that's the reason why, would that explain why crestfallen merchant going hollow was removed?

Because a developer thought it would be funny to have players go through Sen's Fortress each time they needed to buy green titanite shards.

[Grad]

Escrito originalmente por Sicris:

Because a developer thought it would be funny to have players go through Sen's Fortress each time they needed to buy green titanite shards.

who needs to buy when you can farm the leeches in the Blighttown?

[Sicris]

Escrito originalmente por Creamy Goodness:

Escrito originalmente por Sicris:

Because a developer thought it would be funny to have players go through Sen's Fortress each time they needed to buy green titanite shards.

who needs to buy when you can farm the leeches in the Blighttown?

Console owners

[Sicris]

I wonder how many people got that joke?

[CloudSeeker]

1. Why from went with effigies instead of souls is something I got no idea of, but their function is a gameplay feature and is pretty much irrelevant as they have to do something in the game.

2. I am pretty sure it did in DS1. The more hollow you are the more you lose yourself, until you only become a monster that feast on other peoples souls.

3. Yes when you do speak with him he is human, but when you kill him he is full hollow. You never fight him when he is a human. Also how do you know how much memory loss he got? He never talks about his past, he might not even know where he came from. Just because you remember where to go doesn't mean you remeber your past.

4. Yes you can become human again if you know how to do it, also doesn't mean your hollow effect have no effect on you when you are human. The armorer losses his memory when he gets rich and that is most likely because of the hollow effect.

5. Some people was already in dranglic from the start, also there might be many ways into dranglic. Just because there is 1 way for the player doesn't mean its the only way, or have every hollow in DS1 started in the asylm and beaten that boss? So much of a prophecy of being the chosen undead if even that guy that likes to jump down a cliff can get out. Before you say anything I think Lenigrast is talking about other players and not the npc's.

6. Yes, those that die do still become hollows. Even when you are human you are a hollow, it is never going away and using a humanity does only 1 thing and that is to prolong its effect.

[CEO of La Responsabilité]

you are right, we are being lied, it is lord Gwyn's doing in the ringed city, well done

Edit: even more impressive, you inferred this before ds3 release, congrats