Severe balance issues (demo)

[Ishiirou]

I love Diablo 1 so when I saw this I was sure I'd be playing it but after trying the demo for an hour I doubt I will buy this if it doesn't get a balance update.
If this stuff is not an issue in the full game, then it's mandatory to make sure the demo actually reflects the full game because I can't tell if the full game is fun if I try the demo and it's not.

1) not enough explanation AT ALL
I watched a couple of Youtube videos first so I heard about a few things but even with this there is stuff that desperately needs explaining.
The skill and spell system desperately need proper explaining but there is nothing. It seems skills are learned automatically if your stats reach the required value?
But the available skills change depending on equipped weapon with even different melee weapon types having different skills?

2) only warrior and rogue to choose from but most magic items increase int or boost spells I just can't learn
Seems like melee skills can be learned from raising stats but nothing suggests the same is true for spells yet way too many spell focused stuff drops.

3) melee is not feasible early on.
In Diablo 1 and this game there is a hard limit to what you can do with a melee build without skills or with skills that are useless like reducing your already rapidly dwindling health even more for a tiny attack speed buff or whatever.

And I dunno about reducing damage only from the front when enemies have tiny hitboxes that makes it really hard to line them up even in doorway so only one can attack you at once the way you could avoid getting ganged up on in Diablo 1.

But when you start out and at least until the first (mini?) boss enemies do a lot of damage and especially the big bulky ones require too many hits for you to avoid taking a lot of damage constantly. There just are not enough health potions when every hit from them takes away 20% of your hp and you are also getting hit by weaker mobs and the occasional fireball you can't dodge while fighting 2-3 other enemies.

Because of this I was using a bow to kite enemies even as warrior which is stupid because if I knew melee was this bad I'd have picked rogue from the start.

The whole point of a melee warrior is to be able to take enemy hits and push through as long as you don't just wander into an enemy group and let them attack you all at once but with such tiny enemy hitboxes and all enemies opening doors easily you can't even make use of the terrain, even using corners to make enemies line up so you spend less time being attacked by more than 1 enemy is not remotely enough.

Using terrain to defeat enemies better was one of the core aspects of Diablo 1 combat but it really doesn't feel like this works in Tower or Kalemonvo outside kiting with a bow.

4) I got a couple of axes but they seem to be totally worthless.
They make you walk incredibly slowly when right from the first area there are quite a few long ranged enemies that force you to dodge or line them up so they hit the terrain.
Also, the dmg minimum is as low as faster melee weapons so damage is hurt a lot and with bad luck it's not much higher than other melee weapons despite having no shield, not being able to dodge properly and also attacking more slowly so it feels not remotely worth it.

5) I heard you cannot sell items, WHY DOES THE GAME NOT TELL YOU RIGHT AWAY?
And why is the inventory still like Diablo 1?
Loot is half the game so if I can't sell it and there is no point in keeping anything that isn't actually useful why is it like in Diablo 1 with inventory Tetris? I get that this game aims to replicate the Diablo 1 experience but when you deviate so much that loot can't be sold you have to communicate this or players get annoyed.

6) right from the start this game is far too focused on weighing different things against each other that either only have marginal benefits vs disadvantages just as high or higher and loot has incredibly small power differences when you can't kill enemies nearly as easily as in Diablo 1 because you can't just sell loot to buy more healing potions if need be and can't really take risks.

This makes the game feel far more restrictive and forced decisions onto players long before they understand wtf they are doing.

It would be far better if like in Diablo 1 at first the player only has to make some basic decisions like 2h axe with 1h sword & shield vs bow or helmet with 3 armor and +2 accuracy vs helmet with 6 armor but right off the bat you ahve skills costing hp or some cauldron apparently giving you suicide skills that are making you actively weaker.
I mean, healing twice as much as a potion in exchange for permanently losing 2 hp every 3rd use is beyond insane, early on when you have like 60-70 health and with enemies dealing so much damage unless you kite with a bow this means your stat points spent on con are ONLY unlock some later skills and if you don't put points into con you are becoming a glass cannon that will die in 1-2 hits.

The entire concept of a healing skill reducing the hp max or mana refill reducing mana max is insane.

7) why do several melee skills require agility? Agility is basically worthless for a warrior early on since dodge is pointless when you desperately need to mitigate damage with armor.
You need str for dmg, con for higher hp and dex for higher accuracy but agi is pointless so it's a total waste to put points into it for a melee skill you can't at all tell is actually worth using at all.

8) overall what the demo shows is that even if this might make sense later on, the start being confusing and poorly balanced just turns away a lot of people that would otherwise like the game.
I'd love to play a Diablo 1 clone that tries to have the same the feeling and style but the way the demo plays I have no reason whatsoever to think I will actually enjoy the game the way it is now.

[Dustwake]

1) Some people like figuring out on their own how stuff works. It's up to personal preference of course but as a game trying to emulate ''the old ways'' it is to be expected that there is little handholding

2) The problem is that you are thinking of rigid classes. There is no ''rogue'' or ''warrior'' in this game. The game even tells you to be flexible. Decide what you want to build based on what items are given and stick with it ignoring the rest

3) I dont understand how you seem to able to perfectly understand how to play this game and yet come to the conclusion that melee sucks. Playing melee the same way you describe and am doing fine???

4) Melee items do indeed need some balancing between themselves (it does get better with mid and lategame mods)

5) Not spoiling anything but it WILL make sense later on why the game has an inventory like this and does not allow you to sell items

6) The loot being only slightly better was a thing in D1 and D2 also. It seems that struggling with enemy difficulty is the real issue (which again is odd, considering you do seem to understand how to play)

It is only 2 max HP or mana and it is FREEEE! the first two times for each spell. Certainly better then dying...

7) Not sure how occasionally ignoring an attack completely does not count as damage mitigation?

8) All things considered. I do not think you will ever enjoy this title...

[Ishiirou]

1) No, because there is always the incredibly easy method of allowing players to disable tutorials, not that more than 1 or 2 would be needed.
Hell, nothing fancy needed either so a simple screenshot of the game with some text would be fine. It'as a minimal effort to make the game a lot more accessible to most people while still allowing anyone who likes to figure out stuff for themselves to do so.

2) That's great but how would I even know? The game is really, REALLY close to Diablo 1 while also relying on players knowing how to play Diablo 1 so a major difference should be pointed out and again a minimalistic tip like 1 line of text below character selection would suffice.

3) Maybe later on, but really not at the beginning. It's not just that basically every youtube video where people start as melee has them die rapidly, I got almost killed in the first room by 1 big dude and a skeleton.
I used a potion when I was low on health and even then when they were dead I was at less than 50% health again.
From the first 2 enemies.
This game has very few mechanics, especially early on so it's not like some real action rpg where you can really dodge enemy attacks when they are close to you or player skill makes a huge difference.
This is mostly about stats and gear and when you start out, you have nothing. And since gear drops are way worse than in Diablo 1 (I actually replayed it last year) this continues for a while.
Doesn't help how skills require agi to learn which is meaningless for early melee, use 8hp when you start with 40 or reduce damage from the front when you frequently get attacked from the side because enemy hitboxes are small and they can much more easily squeeze through openings enemies can't pass in Diablo 1, as mentioned especially doors being hard to block because of this.

4) the core issue I guess, if the game isn't fun early on, why bother playing more? I played for a bit, it wasn't really fun but could have been with the games I suggested. Doesn't matter nearly as much if midgame or whenever the game is more balanced and you can play in a bunch of different ways if people playing the demo, the very thing meant to make them see if they want to play the game or not, and take away from it that they don't like the game.

At this point I have 0 reason to play the full game because I really don't wanna bother with the poorly balanced early game stuff.

6) it still makes no sense whatsoever because you have to heal way too often, the 2 free uses are used in a few minutes so you just permanently weaken your character for something potions can do almost as well with the risk of reducing stats so much your character is totally ruined and you can no longer proceed.
The entire point of games like this is making your character strong so permanently weakening the character for something you can do without penalty in other ways is bs.

And why bother adding something like this at all instead of a 2 use free spell or rather 2 high potions or whatever that heal 80hp?
It is treated like some special reward when it's just worthless.

7) FAR too unreliable for a build that doesn't have a good amount of agi. Like in every game, it's almost irrelevant if you can get not get hit by every 25th attack or whatever when it only takes 3 to kill you, you still have to play as if you have 0 agi because it's pure luck with incredibly low odds.
When you have a good amount of agi and like 25% of not taking damage it starts to actually become something kind of reliable you can kind of account for while playing but before that it makes zero real difference.

8) I would, if it was better balanced early on. Why even put out a demo when you don#t bother designing the early game in a way that makes people want to play?
But I guess the real issue that it seems to be an elitist / e-peen thing.

The need to deny regular gamers access to their game of choice not because the game would be in any way whatsoever less fun for them but rather because as long as the gamer is considered hard / inaccessible for new players / punishing / etc. it's an exclusive club where only the people beating this poorly balanced game are allowed in changing this in any way to allow regular players access who don't like mindless grinding for hours before being allowed to have fun "cheapens" the "achievements" and means it's no longer an exclusive club but something anyone can do.

Anyone can do it already from the start, it's just that most people are not willing to subject themselves to hours of unfun gameplay before the game proved it is actually worth it.

You are just worried that you can no longer brag online you beat xyz hard game because too many others did it, too.

[Dustwake]

Originally posted by Ishiirou:

1) No, because there is always the incredibly easy method of allowing players to disable tutorials, not that more than 1 or 2 would be needed.
Hell, nothing fancy needed either so a simple screenshot of the game with some text would be fine. It'as a minimal effort to make the game a lot more accessible to most people while still allowing anyone who likes to figure out stuff for themselves to do so.

2) That's great but how would I even know? The game is really, REALLY close to Diablo 1 while also relying on players knowing how to play Diablo 1 so a major difference should be pointed out and again a minimalistic tip like 1 line of text below character selection would suffice.

3) Maybe later on, but really not at the beginning. It's not just that basically every youtube video where people start as melee has them die rapidly, I got almost killed in the first room by 1 big dude and a skeleton.
I used a potion when I was low on health and even then when they were dead I was at less than 50% health again.
From the first 2 enemies.
This game has very few mechanics, especially early on so it's not like some real action rpg where you can really dodge enemy attacks when they are close to you or player skill makes a huge difference.
This is mostly about stats and gear and when you start out, you have nothing. And since gear drops are way worse than in Diablo 1 (I actually replayed it last year) this continues for a while.
Doesn't help how skills require agi to learn which is meaningless for early melee, use 8hp when you start with 40 or reduce damage from the front when you frequently get attacked from the side because enemy hitboxes are small and they can much more easily squeeze through openings enemies can't pass in Diablo 1, as mentioned especially doors being hard to block because of this.

4) the core issue I guess, if the game isn't fun early on, why bother playing more? I played for a bit, it wasn't really fun but could have been with the games I suggested. Doesn't matter nearly as much if midgame or whenever the game is more balanced and you can play in a bunch of different ways if people playing the demo, the very thing meant to make them see if they want to play the game or not, and take away from it that they don't like the game.

At this point I have 0 reason to play the full game because I really don't wanna bother with the poorly balanced early game stuff.

6) it still makes no sense whatsoever because you have to heal way too often, the 2 free uses are used in a few minutes so you just permanently weaken your character for something potions can do almost as well with the risk of reducing stats so much your character is totally ruined and you can no longer proceed.
The entire point of games like this is making your character strong so permanently weakening the character for something you can do without penalty in other ways is bs.

And why bother adding something like this at all instead of a 2 use free spell or rather 2 high potions or whatever that heal 80hp?
It is treated like some special reward when it's just worthless.

7) FAR too unreliable for a build that doesn't have a good amount of agi. Like in every game, it's almost irrelevant if you can get not get hit by every 25th attack or whatever when it only takes 3 to kill you, you still have to play as if you have 0 agi because it's pure luck with incredibly low odds.
When you have a good amount of agi and like 25% of not taking damage it starts to actually become something kind of reliable you can kind of account for while playing but before that it makes zero real difference.

8) I would, if it was better balanced early on. Why even put out a demo when you don#t bother designing the early game in a way that makes people want to play?
But I guess the real issue that it seems to be an elitist / e-peen thing.

The need to deny regular gamers access to their game of choice not because the game would be in any way whatsoever less fun for them but rather because as long as the gamer is considered hard / inaccessible for new players / punishing / etc. it's an exclusive club where only the people beating this poorly balanced game are allowed in changing this in any way to allow regular players access who don't like mindless grinding for hours before being allowed to have fun "cheapens" the "achievements" and means it's no longer an exclusive club but something anyone can do.

Anyone can do it already from the start, it's just that most people are not willing to subject themselves to hours of unfun gameplay before the game proved it is actually worth it.

You are just worried that you can no longer brag online you beat xyz hard game because too many others did it, too.

1) The two examples given of what was difficult to understand is basic RPG stuff still. Needing stats to unlock a skill would be straightforward enough to the majority of people. It's not like swapping out a weapon, changing skills in the process is some irreversible decision so it should hardly matter that it is not explained immediately. Would have been nice sure but i would consider it a minor gripe

2) Mind you it is YOUR assumption the game makes you choose between Warrior and Rogue. A lightbulb should have lit up when you notice they have names instead of class titles (not to mention the lack of wizard) Your choices are effectively male/female which is not at all strange for a game to do

3) Since beating the game on Iron Man mode with a sword and board character i need to correct myself IT is possible to get decent survivability early on so my previous point is invalid

Frequently evading hits from normal mobs helps massively with diminishing the need to use potions. Feels like our experience is night and day when it comes to AGI

The small enemies that can slip past the larger ones/doorways i assume to be Ghouls which should hardly be a threat anyway

4) Found unique gloves granting +6 CON and STR at the cost of -3 agility on floor 1 (yes i am cherry-picking a bit)

You are free to play D1 as much as you like :)

6) At some point you have to come to terms that this game really does not suit you. Having to use the heal this much means something is going very wrong with the way you play. You seem decent enough so maybe the game hates you or something?

7) Our experience seems wildly different here (sorry)

8) I love my >1% achievement but i dont recall bragging about how it makes me better then anyone. I even mentioned in the OG post too that you seem good enough but the game is just not compatible somehow

Please dont insult the effort people put in clearing this game :(