Shadowrun Returns

Shadowrun Returns

Kyrandis 2013 年 7 月 26 日 上午 11:21
What the f is up with the RNG in this game?
So my beef with this is lik having a positive chance to hit as in > 50% and missing like 90% of the time. Wtf? Not only have I missed like 2-3 times in consecutiev succession on chanecs of like 70-80% but on one occassion 91% miss 3 times in a row.
I feel like I have a better chance at hitting a guy with a sh**ty magic bolt at 33% across the map then pointblank with a shotgun at 91%.(WHICH HAS HAPPENED, I got so annoyed I started marking how many times a 33% hits vs how many times my 91% shotgun misses on equal usage and so far it's not looking good. 33% hit joke bolt hit like 6 times out of 9 and shotgun hit 7 out of 9)
最后由 Kyrandis 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 26 日 上午 11:22
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正在显示第 61 - 75 条,共 77 条留言
Satoru 2013 年 7 月 26 日 下午 7:33 
引用自 KyrandisX
引用自 Darkeus

Any flaw in the coin can move that possibility in any way.

Another wonderful thing about statistics. All coins are made to exact specs, until they have been out in the world for a while.... ;-)

Anything can be done to exact probability in a sterile study. In the world, possibility fluctuates in a much more dynamic fashion.
Yeah see there's the thing though, that's in the WORLD, I'm talking about a digital microverse here. not real world statistics, the RNG in any computer is basically a flawed coin.
Here's a good example where one company tried to improve RNG so it's not so freaking ridiculous like getting 5 criticals in a row with a 10% chance or a dodge with like 25% chance evading 4-6 times in a row.
http://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Evasion

1) RNG in computer games are pseudo RNG. However the entropy used in such applications is random enough fro this application. We are not in the esoteric realm where massive amounts of randomness is required from the pRNG like is required in things like cryptography or in data crunching massive amounts of data. Any basic computer pRNG is totally fine for gaming purpose and is 'random enough'.

2) The above example you give has little to do with an RNG, it's simply a system by which you 'smooth out' the OUTCOME. The RNG is still an RNG.

As has been said in every otehr game with an RNG

The RNG doesn't hate you

You jsut hate statistics.
最后由 Satoru 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 26 日 下午 7:43
Satoru 2013 年 7 月 26 日 下午 7:37 
引用自 Slowjerk
What is the gambler's fallacy for 200 alex?

RNG in computers is psuedo because it's usually seeded off the frequency of the cpu or something? That's what I heard anyways.

RNGs in comptuers are usually based on a formula that spit out random numbers. The 'seed' is simply the initial value you use to generate the list of numbers. These are useful so you can replicate a random set of numbers in the situation where you might need a repeatable, but still 'random' data set. Some formulas are 'better' than others for randomness.

pRNG algorithms have varying levels of entropy. And ifyou're relaly really really realy into math you can argue literally your entire life about which algorithms are better and how much entropy is needed, and how to get more entropy for specific applications like encryption, etc etc etc.

For the purposes of 'to hit rolls in a RPG' any pRNG algorithm is totally fine.

And note 'random' does not mean getting 8 heads in a row is impossible. In fact it's something that SHOULD happen in a truly RNG system.

From a GAMEPLAY perpsective there is a differnce between using the RNG, and what a player's PERCEPTION of the outcome should be.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/62807/sid-meier-and-rob-pardo

Humans suck at math. They suck even more at probability. Users often do not 'like' random outcomes. ANd such, sometimes you design system to actually REMOVE randomness because at the end of the day, sometimes 'fun' is more important than 'true math'.
最后由 Satoru 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 26 日 下午 7:42
PerfectLife 2013 年 7 月 26 日 下午 7:50 
Wait, wait, wait.... you can dodge gunfire in Shadowrun? Well that's dumb.
Kyrandis 2013 年 7 月 26 日 下午 7:53 
引用自 Satoru
引用自 Slowjerk
What is the gambler's fallacy for 200 alex?

RNG in computers is psuedo because it's usually seeded off the frequency of the cpu or something? That's what I heard anyways.

RNGs in comptuers are usually based on a formula that spit out random numbers. The 'seed' is simply the initial value you use to generate the list of numbers. These are useful so you can replicate a random set of numbers in the situation where you might need a repeatable, but still 'random' data set. Some formulas are 'better' than others for randomness.

pRNG algorithms have varying levels of entropy. And ifyou're relaly really really realy into math you can argue literally your entire life about which algorithms are better and how much entropy is needed, and how to get more entropy for specific applications like encryption, etc etc etc.

For the purposes of 'to hit rolls in a RPG' any pRNG algorithm is totally fine.

And note 'random' does not mean getting 8 heads in a row is impossible. In fact it's something that SHOULD happen in a truly RNG system.

From a GAMEPLAY perpsective there is a differnce between using the RNG, and what a player's PERCEPTION of the outcome should be.

http://www.shacknews.com/article/62807/sid-meier-and-rob-pardo

Humans suck at math. They suck even more at probability. Users often do not 'like' random outcomes. ANd such, sometimes you design system to actually REMOVE randomness because at the end of the day, sometimes 'fun' is more important than 'true math'.
I don't mind randomness at all but my earlier rant was about the damn consistency of crap results based on what was shown consistently. It's not like my chars were missing then hitting, it was like mass waves of hits and then mass waves of misses. That to me isn't random at all considering the waves came in at hit percentages of 70-97%, it's like it could've just been 5050 and it'd be the same. that's how it feels.
Tatra 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 7:35 
引用自 KyrandisX
引用自 Hosen
you had a 2% chance to miss. You missed. I'd hate to see you have to handle serious problems in life.
lol you have a 1% chance to be in a car accident every day on the road

Really? 'cause, I think the chance is lower than that. I think you've taken that number out of thin air.
Aal 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 7:44 
引用自 sidnitzerglobin
My guess has been that it's displaying your % to hit before applying any external factors like dodge, etc.

Not trying to be antagonistic, but do you really want combat to be easier than it is already?

hehe, so true
Darkeus 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 7:52 
引用自 PerfectLife
Wait, wait, wait.... you can dodge gunfire in Shadowrun? Well that's dumb.

Not exactly.... The Damage Resistance test is not "Dodge" persay. It is a negative modifier to the successes you got on a roll. It varies as it must be rolled as well and can fail.
最后由 Darkeus 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 7:53
Yawning 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 9:06 
引用自 KyrandisX
I don't mind randomness at all but my earlier rant was about the damn consistency of crap results based on what was shown consistently. It's not like my chars were missing then hitting, it was like mass waves of hits and then mass waves of misses. That to me isn't random at all considering the waves came in at hit percentages of 70-97%, it's like it could've just been 5050 and it'd be the same. that's how it feels.

Clustering Illusion.

A quick check with IDA says that the game uses whatever Unity3D ships with, and google says that Unity3D ships with xorshift128.

As far as PRNGs go, xorshift128 is fast but has a few flaws that show up in statistical testing(0). But since this is neither a numerical analysis app nor something that requies cryptographic random numbers, it's sufficient (and I've seen much worse be used).

*shrugs* I don't care enough about this to dig up the actual hit calculation code/percentile display code to see how they use the random numbers they get, but the PRNG itself is fine.

(0): F. Panneton and P. L'Ecuyer, ``On the Xorshift Random Number Generators'', 2004
最后由 Yawning 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 9:07
fenlander 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 9:08 
引用自 Vryllyn
So far the RNG in this has been much more forgiving then Blood Bowl or X-Com, where you can miss a 100%.

So far for me this is the case you want a unforgiving RNG play Blood Bowl or Xcom. This games RNG I have hardly ever missed on normal difficulty.
Hadraziel 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 9:14 
引用自 F4ll3N
Less of a pew pew game more of a story.

View it as an interactive novel not as a COD match.

yeah, who cares if the mechanics are broken! as long as the dialog is great!
we all know that game can either have one or the other, not both
Darkeus 2013 年 7 月 27 日 上午 9:17 
Mechanics are not broken....
Kyrandis 2013 年 7 月 27 日 下午 2:21 
引用自 fenlander
引用自 Vryllyn
So far the RNG in this has been much more forgiving then Blood Bowl or X-Com, where you can miss a 100%.

So far for me this is the case you want a unforgiving RNG play Blood Bowl or Xcom. This games RNG I have hardly ever missed on normal difficulty.
i'm playing very hard. *beaten not playing.
最后由 Kyrandis 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 27 日 下午 2:21
›Kolanaki 2013 年 7 月 27 日 下午 2:29 
Missing every now and then when the maximum chance is 99% is okay. There's still that 1%.

At least it's not XCOM, where 100% chance to hit means a 50% chance to miss.
ULTRA 2013 年 7 月 27 日 下午 2:34 
I thought for certain that the tabletop nerds would be able to at least handle basic probability? The point OP is brining up is that the probabilities listed aren't accurate, and, while I haven't run a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chi-square test on this stuff, I've noticed the exact same thing.

引用自 Yawning
引用自 KyrandisX
I don't mind randomness at all but my earlier rant was about the damn consistency of crap results based on what was shown consistently. It's not like my chars were missing then hitting, it was like mass waves of hits and then mass waves of misses. That to me isn't random at all considering the waves came in at hit percentages of 70-97%, it's like it could've just been 5050 and it'd be the same. that's how it feels.

Clustering Illusion.

A quick check with IDA says that the game uses whatever Unity3D ships with, and google says that Unity3D ships with xorshift128.

As far as PRNGs go, xorshift128 is fast but has a few flaws that show up in statistical testing(0). But since this is neither a numerical analysis app nor something that requies cryptographic random numbers, it's sufficient (and I've seen much worse be used).

*shrugs* I don't care enough about this to dig up the actual hit calculation code/percentile display code to see how they use the random numbers they get, but the PRNG itself is fine.

(0): F. Panneton and P. L'Ecuyer, ``On the Xorshift Random Number Generators'', 2004

Praise the lord, at least someone knows what they're talking about, unfortunately I doubt you have access to the source code which may be "interpreting" the results of the PRNG.
最后由 ULTRA 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 27 日 下午 2:37
Tatra 2013 年 7 月 28 日 上午 4:14 
引用自 Richard Rooster
I thought for certain that the tabletop nerds would be able to at least handle basic probability? The point OP is brining up is that the probabilities listed aren't accurate, and, while I haven't run a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ chi-square test on this stuff, I've noticed the exact same thing.

Well if you want to talk probability then you presumably know that, as the number of isolated events increases, the chance that some will show highly improbably results approaches 1... or, to put it another way, with the number of people playing this currently a couple of people noticing an extended runs of unlikely misses is not just possible, but in fact almost certain. To put it another way; sorry, but you've probably just been on the low end of the bell curve.

This kind of discussion inevitiably comes up about every single game with visible "hit rates", to the point where some games (especially MMOs) actually have hidden systems that detect if a player is having a string of misses, and invisibly increases the chance of subsequent attacks hitting so it feels fairer... even though, in actual fact, it leads to a random probabilistic system that isn't truly probabilistic OR random. This even leads to gaming the system; there're certain games where people have figured out how many misses lead up to a 100% hit, then "farmed misses" until they've hit the golden number for a guaranteed hit before making a critical attack.
最后由 Tatra 编辑于; 2013 年 7 月 28 日 上午 4:15
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发帖日期: 2013 年 7 月 26 日 上午 11:21
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