The difference between P2W and expansion

[All Day I Dream About🪓]

I feel like this topic deserves more attention since people keep misunderstanding the difference between pay-to-win (P2W) and game expansions. Here’s a clear explanation:

Pay-to-Win (P2W) vs. Game Expansions

Pay-to-Win (P2W)

- Purpose: P2W mechanics allow players to gain an unfair advantage by spending real money, often to purchase in-game power such as stronger items, boosts, or exclusive characters.
- Impact: P2W disrupts game balance, especially in competitive or multiplayer settings. Players who spend money can progress faster or outperform those who don’t spend, creating an uneven playing field.
- Examples: Purchasing overpowered weapons, gear, or special abilities that give players a direct advantage without having to earn them through gameplay.

Game Expansions

- Purpose: Expansions are paid content that add new features, such as additional storylines, regions, characters, or mechanics, enhancing the game’s overall experience without giving players an unfair advantage.
- Impact: Expansions offer new content for all players to explore but don’t disrupt the balance between those who purchase them and those who don’t. They usually provide more content but don’t make players inherently stronger compared to others.
- Examples: Expansions like World of Warcraft: Shadowlands or The Witcher 3: Blood and Wine add new areas, quests, and storylines, but they don’t grant competitive advantages.

Key Differences

- Advantage: P2W is about gaining in-game advantages quickly, while expansions focus on adding content.
- Balance: P2W disrupts balance, whereas expansions enhance or extend gameplay without offering competitive advantages.
- Player Impact: P2W is seen as unfair to non-paying players, while expansions cater to those wanting more content without penalizing others.

In summary, P2W affects the fairness and balance of the game, while expansions improve the overall experience without creating an unfair advantage.

The Controversy Over Diablo 4 and Expansions

Some people are criticizing Diablo 4 for requiring payment for expansions, calling it P2W. One complaint is that rune words are accessible only with the VoH expansion. However, it's important to remember that runes were not available in the base game of Diablo 2 either, without the Lord of Destruction (LoD) expansion. In fact, rune words in LoD were incredibly overpowered, whereas in Diablo 4, rune words seem to provide more subtle, balanced effects.

If this logic were followed, many other games with expansions would be considered P2W, such as:

1. The Division 2 and Warlords of New York
2. Monster Hunter World and Iceborne
3. Dragon's Dogma and Dark Arisen
4. Borderlands 3 and its various DLCs
5. FromSoftware games like Dark Souls, Bloodborne, or Elden Ring
6. Horizon Zero Dawn
7. The Witcher 3

In each of these games, expansions provide new power, gear, and content not available to those who don’t own them. However, these expansions are not P2W; they are simply paid content that enhances the overall game experience without breaking the competitive balance.

So I think this should cover it.

[Amarth]

Good post. Since this isn't a pay to play MMO they have to finance expansions in other ways. I doubt premium brings in much money, perhaps enough to keep the servers going but hardly a cash cow. It's all about selling the base game + expansions. Same deal as back with D2 indeed.

For those who haven't played them Korean grind MMOs, pay to win is defined as either paying money to get an unfair advantage or paying money to skip out on grinding.

I suspect that the expansion will separate vanilla players and expansion players on different servers... we'll see.

[Six of Saturn]

Originally posted by LOL:

P2W means pay to win. If you pay money to get something that helps you win you engaged in P2W. You are trying to focus on one aspect of the meaning to fit your needs of spreading propaganda instead of using the real definition.

So by your logic Cyberpunk 2077s expanssion is pay to win also because it has access to stronger guns and new relic powers not obtainable in the base game? If so I am not going to say you are wrong, but that is a pretty extreme take on P2W IMO.

[Six of Saturn]

Another thing that separates P2W vs Expansion, is new content difficulty. If the content is so tough in the expansion area that we need new powers(in this case Runes) to have a chance in the expansion is it still P2W? I would say no because that is gameplay balancing.

[PJthePlayer]

Originally posted by LOL:

I've debunked every point you've made. You keep jumping around, what point do you want me to focus on?

Where'd ya go, buddy?

[Grampire]

"But the devs said they wouldn't do this NO FAAWR!!!"

🤣🤣

No one who had looked at Blizzard's business model since they began making the Warcraft RTS games in the 90's is in any way surprised by this, at all.

Beyond the Dark Portal
Hellfire
Brood Wars
Lord Of Destrction
The Frozen Throne
WoW Expack ×10
Reaper of Souls
Vessel of Hatred

The only times they changed it up - for Starcraft 2 and Overwatch - were met with widespread criticism and anger.... at them just not releasing traditional expacks.


You can say it's outdated - great. But it's the same thing.

[Grampire]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Diablo:

Originally posted by Grampire:

"But the devs said they wouldn't do this NO FAAWR!!!"

🤣🤣

No one who had looked at Blizzard's business model since they began making the Warcraft RTS games in the 90's is in any way surprised by this, at all.

Beyond the Dark Portal
Hellfire
Brood Wars
Lord Of Destrction
The Frozen Throne
WoW Expack ×10
Reaper of Souls
Vessel of Hatred

The only times they changed it up - for Starcraft 2 and Overwatch - were met with widespread criticism and anger.... at them just not releasing traditional expacks.


You can say it's outdated - great. But it's the same thing.

Clearly the issue is none of the devs for any of those games said they wouldn't sell power for your character in the future.

No one is complaining about the game getting new content, they are complaining about being lied to. They could have easily provided an expansion with new content, new class, new story, new areas, etc., without restricting access to power from base users (which they promised they wouldn't do this time around.)

I think it is reasonable to expect a developer to live by it's promises, especially when they are selling a game on their word in the first place.

Doesn't seem like a compelling argument at all and it's lacking contextual significance. I also seriously, seriously doubt additional chunks of expansion content would be relevant or desirable to anyone - paid or otherwise - if they didn't make you feel more powerful.

Seriously what "alternative" scenario are you actually expecting here?

[DarkClawtooth]

So just my two cents here, not that anyone cares what I would have to say as I am late to this convo. But I feel everyone is really misinterpreting what the devs said. When they said. In my opinion they were talking about the Shop, as in micotransactions for powerups/gear/items like Diablo Immortal does. They never said anything about not gatelocking new mechanics in paid Dlc/Expansions.

If someone can prove me wrong fine, but nowhere did I ever see them talking about anything but responding to the backlash/concerns of Diablo Immortals mictrotransactions when they first announced D4 was gonna have a paid sshop section.

[Luwae]

You're confusing pay to win and pay to play. If the devs said the game would never offer any pay to win content, fact is so far they were right. The expansion is a pay to play expansion, you need to pay to play the new content and have access to the new class. It won't give you any advantages over those who didn't pay, it will allow you to play a different content, that's all. Just like any other game that offer new content.

[PJthePlayer]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Diablo:

Originally posted by PJthePlayer:

Where'd ya go, buddy?

Looks like he realized OP kept changing the definition just to argue. If you read through LOL countered all his points and then OP began recycling them while saying they weren't being focused when you can clearly scroll up and see them previously addressed. This seems like a troll and bait thread, I don't think OP is being genuine.

Why are you talking about yourself in the third person?

[Grampire]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Diablo:

Originally posted by Grampire:

Doesn't seem like a compelling argument at all and it's lacking contextual significance. I also seriously, seriously doubt additional chunks of expansion content would be relevant or desirable to anyone - paid or otherwise - if they didn't make you feel more powerful.

Seriously what "alternative" scenario are you actually expecting here?

I'm confused on what you mean by lacking context and possible alternative scenarios?

Here is the context:
"Christy Um, the Senior Director of Global PR at Blizzard Entertainment, confirmed that Diablo IV will not have pay-to-win microtransactions in an email to The Washington Post. Um stated that all purchasable in-game items are purely cosmetic and do not provide any gameplay advantages. She wrote, "Purchased items are cosmetic only. Cosmetics do not impact gameplay. Therefore, players cannot pay for power"


We have already seen seasons where they implemented new content and rebalanced items. It would be very easy to make a paid expansion to expand on the story, offer a party finder mechanic, offer a larger world to explore, offer a new character, while still giving base game players access to the new power creep items and mechanics that they have been in the past seasons.

Like season 2, they offered the vampire power mechanics free to base users. Season 3 they offered the mechanical robot free to base users. Season 4 they offered the item stat remix free to users. Season 5 they even offered the infernal hordes free to users. All the new content was supposed to be generated through Battlepass and cosmetic profits. The real question is where is all that money going now that we have to pay for seasonal content again.

But the issue remains, they gave a statement they won't charge for power, that was a strong selling point that was stated to alleviate concerns derived from Diablo Immortals predatory systems. They upheld the statement for over a year and now have evidently backtracked on it, which makes it a lie. People are upset they were lied to. Now we have to pay money to make our characters stronger.

Lacking "contextual significance" relates to the way previous Diablos have all sold power to the players and now for some reason D4 can't because "the devs should keep their promises." Presuming of course that you agree that "selling power" relates to expanding mechanics and itemization as it relates to additional expansion content.

Because "Selling power" as I understood the statement from Blizzard clearly referenced methods being implemented that would allow the player to buy their goals - purchase gear or consumables that would effectively prevent them from needing to play the game.

That's not what an expack does and it feels like mincing that message. The things you listed as "being acceptable in an expack" are barely more than QoL features - not even near enough for a full expack or paid content.

Whether you like it or not, and whether Blizzard flaps their lips in contradiction to it or not, content that any player should expect to receive from this expack is tied to an elevated power level. If the expack weren't offering expanded itemization and new mechanics that grant power there would be negligible value to anyone.

And you dodged my question more or less about an actual alternative. We saw that alternative in D2 LoD, where expansion characters couldn't play or interact with non-expack characters. The solution here - to preserve the "not selling power" without giving it away for free - would be to divide the community.

So ask what's better - being a second rate citizen or being in vanilla version jail? Diablo 2 is a pretty mid game without LoD and D3 was pretty bad before RoS - wanna see if it's 3 for 3 or not?

[Grampire]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Diablo:

Originally posted by Grampire:

Lacking "contextual significance" relates to the way previous Diablos have all sold power to the players and now for some reason D4 can't because "the devs should keep their promises." Presuming of course that you agree that "selling power" relates to expanding mechanics and itemization as it relates to additional expansion content.

Because "Selling power" as I understood the statement from Blizzard clearly referenced methods being implemented that would allow the player to buy their goals - purchase gear or consumables that would effectively prevent them from needing to play the game.

That's not what an expack does and it feels like mincing that message. The things you listed as "being acceptable in an expack" are barely more than QoL features - not even near enough for a full expack or paid content.

Whether you like it or not, and whether Blizzard flaps their lips in contradiction to it or not, content that any player should expect to receive from this expack is tied to an elevated power level. If the expack weren't offering expanded itemization and new mechanics that grant power there would be negligible value to anyone.

And you dodged my question more or less about an actual alternative. We saw that alternative in D2 LoD, where expansion characters couldn't play or interact with non-expack characters. The solution here - to preserve the "not selling power" without giving it away for free - would be to divide the community.

So ask what's better - being a second rate citizen or being in vanilla version jail? Diablo 2 is a pretty mid game without LoD and D3 was pretty bad before RoS - wanna see if it's 3 for 3 or not?

I'm not sure why you are acting like we haven't seen them add story, mechanics, and new items through season 1-5 without charging people.

If they want to add an expansion and charge people fine, start charging people that have already paid $150+ to finish the story and add LFG.

Why do we have to pay more money for stronger items though when they specifically said they wouldn't put extra charges on stronger items a year ago? I guess because they lied.

Lol, Because you're paying for a lot more than stronger items and releasing an expansion without expanded itemization would be the worst value proposition ever.

I don't think they lied, and I'm glad they're passively acknowlging that any perception of them lying is less significant than proportionally releasing content that is expected to be in a full price expansion.

[Grampire]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Diablo:

Originally posted by Grampire:

Lol, Because you're paying for a lot more than stronger items and releasing an expansion without expanded itemization would be the worst value proposition ever.

But they specifically said we will never pay for stronger items. They lied.

In that case I'm glad they lied. The expansion will be better because of it.

[Grampire]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Diablo:

Originally posted by Grampire:

In that case I'm glad they lied. The expansion will be better because of it.

And this is why we get bad games. Players are happy to be lied to and scammed by the devs. The devs see this and double down on it. The microtransactions were supposed to be funding the new content in the first place, but they saw that you wanted to be lied to and charged more money.

"Oh no, I never saw it coming and never expected this. Poor me."

🤣

[N1ck0]

Originally posted by Grampire:

Being "scammed" presumes a lack of awareness and anticipation of something.

That is the correct definition in a nutshell indeed.

[N1ck0]

Originally posted by All Day I Dream About Sex:

Your repeated focus on mental disorders says a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.

There are people with actual mental disorders, often outside of their control, sometimes not, but in need of help.

Using this to try to insult people, let's just say is not the best way to go about things. And it is disrespectful to those who actually have mental disorders they wish they would be cured of.

I mean, at least in a civilised, mature adult context. Internet forums are more often than not used as virtual middle-school playgrounds.

I guess in this context, those concepts don't apply.