What character do you have troubles with?

[Scrublord]

Thought it could be helpful, we all say a character we have trouble winning with any why. Also maybe an item you never use if you have one. I don't know how to use butcher, bigger means nothing to be but making you easier to hit, I also have never used the item that adds more barrels.

[Okhu]

The ritual doll that reduces your life to 1 the next floor for 7% life steal is an idiot trap.

[CheckYourSix]

The game is only hard in the beginning. Once you've picked up enough gear the game becomes vastly easier which is typically the late game. So dying early is typically what happens. This means characters that have an innate drawback that makes them very weak in the early game tends to be the harder characters. For me those characters are:

**** HARD CLASSES ****
Scout = -50 armor early game is killer.

Soul Drinker = -50 armor again like Scout

Beggar = The need to spend maximum life to buy items means being easy to 1 shot due to low life all the time.

Adept = Due to maximum health being vastly reduced in the early game because of leveling gets the Adept inventory slots which reduces max health makes this character like the Beggar very easy to one shot as well.

Fieldkeeper = being forced to only use polearms means limited inventory space early. Polearms also have very low DPS early on as well. With the limited DPS it is hard to level fast enough to get the inventory slots needed to get more polearms equipped to get the DPS needed to survive the early/mid levels.

Crusader = This became easier with the last patch, but this is a character that can't use lifesteal and can't use their scaling mechanic in the early game. This character is basically a weak knight early on in a run since the damage from shields shut off when hit and don't have much range early. The shield damage used to not have any range.

As far as items, I list them in groups of BAD, subpar, and situational. Bad should almost never be taken. Subpar means there is better items out there. Situational items can be very bad for a build or very good.

**** BAD ITEMS ****
Ritual Doll = starting next floor with 1 hp is asking to die. I've survived doing it, but I don't recommend it at all for the 7% lifesteal.

War Drum = Utterly useless as an item. Massive negative damage for Tier 3 and below items? Good luck trying to use this PoS of an item.

Gold Chain = crap for every class but the Beggar and maybe the Merchant. The huge loss to movement speed and dodge chance is not worth any amount of resource gain for every character. Money just isn't an issue for most classes.

**** SUBPAR ITEMS ****
Ring of Power = 5% damage for the -vitality is rarely worth it. Damage is much easier to get than Vitaltiy.

Hand Glass Mirror = The 4% life steal typically isn't worth the loss of damage in the early levels when a characters damage is already low. Slowing down your killing speed is bad for exp gains which you need more than this paltry lifesteal.

Bell = the gain to melee power and magic power over the loss of dodge is okay in the early game, but quickly falls off in usefulness. If you need melee power then the whetstone is way better of a choice. The whetstones attack speed also provides more dps for a magic build over the the +1 magic power here. Just really not a good items to buy compared to other items in the same tier.

Shadow Mushroom = same as the Bell. The small amount of melee power and magic power for the loss of vitality early on could be deadly to many early game classes.

Waterskin = Recovery in this game in general is bad. So gaining 5 recovery for a loss of movement speed is pretty bad. Golem and the Priestess based characters are the only ones that can use this somewhat effectively.

Guardian Belt = Vitality and a bad amount of armor for the slots taken to lose movement speed is pretty bad. Basically only useable by the Adept and Golem.

Fist weapons = in general, fist weapons are awful. They are straight line single target weapons. They have a hard time hitting enemies and just bad DPS in conjunction with their tendency to miss. Exception is the Claw which is a swiping fist weapon.

Smoke Pellets = the small amount of dodge for the loss of damage is again not really worth it unless playing the Scout.

Spyglass = This is actually decent enough to use in the early game for extra range. It does cost you dodge, but dodge items don't typically show up, except smoke pellets, until later in the game. So having negative dodge is like having zero dodge which most classes start with anyhow. There are better range items later like the Lantern and the Malevolent Observer for examples. Still, most classes can get by without needing the additional range early game.

Lifestone = This green looking egg gives recovery, a small amount of vitality, and reduces luck by quite a bit. This isn't worth getting for almost any character. The loss of luck early really does hurt getting better items that are desperately needed early. The Priestess classes are about the only ones that can actually use this item somewhat.

Sawblade Launcher = is this a joke weapon? Barely does any damage for the slots it takes up. It is slow and the bounce damage is laughable as it only bounces to 1 target.

Hunter's Hat = basically a ranger only item. The bonuses don't really fit most builds. The lack of movement speed for just a small amount of melee power, projectile power, and the laughable 1 armor isn't worth it.

Smoking Pipe = 8% damage for the loss of range isn't the worst. However as a 3 slot item it just isn't generally worth it for the small DPS gain.

Medallion of Might = Basically a ranger only item as projectile power with melee power isn't useful for most builds. It can be used, but there are way better items that take up the same space without the big negative to dodge chance.

Flagellant's Crown = A small bonus to all damage types based on recovery. Again recovery isn't a good stat in this game and this item is really only useful to the Priestess classes which can't use lifesteal items. The trade off being that this items makes recovery even more useless. Where before it took 20 recovery = 1 HP gain a second, it is 80 recovery now for 1 HP gain a second with this item.

Herb = Recovery plus Dodge bonus for a loss of damage. Recovery being a bad stat here and dodge being better from other items makes this item very subpar.

Crown of Bloodthorn = Lots of lifesteal is good. Extra Damage from Lifesteal is good. The huge hit to Vitality is very bad. The loss to vitality can be made up with other items considering how late in most runs this shows up at least. Still very rarely end up taking in this in favor the far superior Vampires Heart lifesteal item.

**** SITUATIONAL ITEMS****
Dual Sword = First off the shape of the weapon makes it hard to put it adjacent to other weapons to spread its benefits to other weapons. Second, having to sit still early game is rough and usually killer. However, you can make do with small movements and then stopping to get some dps back. Its rough to do early, but not impossible. Late game this weapon in the right builds can be deadly.

Hammers = Low DPS but ok AoE potential. The big problem with hammers is their lack of attack speed. That and there are only 3 hammer types in the game. The fact that Throwing Hammers don't count as melee weapons is rough if you are looking to stick it next to items that buff melee weapons.

Polearms = most polearms are straight line weapons. Crimson Scythe and Halberd being the exceptions. That means they tend to miss a lot. They also tend to have low DPS early due to slow attack speeds while taking up a huge amount of inventory slots that could be usually filled with 2 weapons of other types.

Daggers = Straight line attack weapons. These weapons tend to have problems hitting targets and only hit 1 at a time. Sure they only take up 3 slots, but are in general bad. The Vorpal Blade though kicks butt as a unique dagger that also swipes for some reason. Throwing Daggers also kick butt through the entire game and can enable other throwing weapons that get stacking bonuses being next to other throwing weapons.

Feather Quill = its okay for magic builds, but really need to get overcome the attack speed loss as that hurts DPS a lot. Still +luck and +mag power is okay enough to take if you can get attack speed items fast enough.

Cleaver = this weapon takes up a huge amount of slots and the attacks are straight line. Occasionally it does a weak ground slam attack that basically "extends" its damage in a straight line. If stacking other Mighty weapons near by that extension can go pretty far, but there aren't many weapons with the Mighty tag in the game and they are all huge. It is also slow to attack with making the DPS for this pretty low in the early game.

Dice = Love and hate these. Great for getting early luck and some crit, but the loss of attack speed makes this very situational in the early game as that loss of DPS from the attack speed can be very bad.

Ruined Bowpiece = the projectile power for lack of range... very situational trade off. Can be overcome with the spyglass, but then you lose dodge. Which is OK early. Projectile damage overall is subpar though compared to melee and magic damage.

Resource Items = All resource generating items are very situational. Money isn't that hard to come by. Resource items are a big thing when playing the Beggar and Merchant, but aren't really a big deal for most classes. They aren't the worst items to pick, but basically something to take if you don't have anything else to fill in a slot.

Storm Eye = this item for non moving builds is crazy good. For everyone else this item is crazy bad. Pure situational item.

Sacred Leaf = lots of Vitality and Armor but basically you can't heal while fighting on a floor. Very situational item here. Almost on the subpar list. However, with enough armor and dodge, not having any healing isn't that big of a deal.

Crystal Flower = +Recovery for -Lifesteal usually isn't a good deal. Recovery is vastly worse than lifesteal. It is decent for the the Priestess class and the + magic power can be used by magic classes. Still it is a very situational item.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Okhu:

The ritual doll that reduces your life to 1 the next floor for 7% life steal is an idiot trap.

I disagree. Its bad for beginners, but for mid to higher skilled players this is worth it. If your really worried about it, pick up a shield. I like having 1 -2 shields in general. At early game, it absorbs full hits and you shouldn't be getting hit that often.

[Sirjames101]

yeah gonna disagree a lot with this list. vitality is easy to get mid game i usually just dump stat it then find the item that gives vitality per armor item. every build either wants to be a +move speed or -move speed you choose at the start. +move builds often need less defense but the items are rarer. while - move speed builds need more defense but the items are easier to get and stack.

[CheckYourSix]

The reason for the list is their relative tier and usefulness to the portion of a run they are available. Taking negative vitality early in a run when a character has no vitality and low hit points from levels is an easy way to be killed. Again, my list is broken up in to bad (aka almost never take), sub par meaning it can be used but there are typically better items, or situational which are items that can be either really good or really bad depending on the build one is going for.

[Adeptus Stark]

Originally posted by seanruff:

I also have never used the item that adds more barrels.

You should at least get one. I usually have two. The amount of extra healing or available invincibility items that drop can be very helpful to any build.

Originally posted by Okhu:

The ritual doll that reduces your life to 1 the next floor for 7% life steal is an idiot trap.

Like all tools, it depends on the user. Don't get this item until you have a "good" attack speed, decent range (even on melee weapons) and a higher than 10 life steal.

With multiple fast weapons and a high life steal, you will see non stop green +1's over your head when you take damage.

I think people forget the range ability on characters if they are not using ranged weapons. There's a +20 range Item you can unlock that is great for two inventory spaces. Get two of them and forget about it.

[Idle_Input]

Originally posted by CheckYourSix:

The game is only hard in the beginning. Once you've picked up enough gear the game becomes vastly easier which is typically the late game. So dying early is typically what happens. This means characters that have an innate drawback that makes them very weak in the early game tends to be the harder characters. For me those characters are:

**** HARD CLASSES ****
Scout = -50 armor early game is killer.

Soul Drinker = -50 armor again like Scout

Beggar = The need to spend maximum life to buy items means being easy to 1 shot due to low life all the time.

Adept = Due to maximum health being vastly reduced in the early game because of leveling gets the Adept inventory slots which reduces max health makes this character like the Beggar very easy to one shot as well.

Fieldkeeper = being forced to only use polearms means limited inventory space early. Polearms also have very low DPS early on as well. With the limited DPS it is hard to level fast enough to get the inventory slots needed to get more polearms equipped to get the DPS needed to survive the early/mid levels.

Crusader = This became easier with the last patch, but this is a character that can't use lifesteal and can't use their scaling mechanic in the early game. This character is basically a weak knight early on in a run since the damage from shields shut off when hit and don't have much range early. The shield damage used to not have any range.

As far as items, I list them in groups of BAD, subpar, and situational. Bad should almost never be taken. Subpar means there is better items out there. Situational items can be very bad for a build or very good.

**** BAD ITEMS ****
Ritual Doll = starting next floor with 1 hp is asking to die. I've survived doing it, but I don't recommend it at all for the 7% lifesteal.

War Drum = Utterly useless as an item. Massive negative damage for Tier 3 and below items? Good luck trying to use this PoS of an item.

Raven's Feather = Stacking Dodge chance (up to the max) in exchange for stacking negative movement debuff? No thank you. If your dodge is low enough to benefit from the stacks, then it is low enough to be hit often to the point you character can't move at all. It is a dumb item.

Gold Chain = crap for every class but the Beggar and maybe the Merchant. The huge loss to movement speed and dodge chance is not worth any amount of resource gain for every character. Money just isn't an issue for most classes.

**** SUBPAR ITEMS ****
Ring of Power = 5% damage for the -vitality is rarely worth it. Damage is much easier to get than Vitaltiy.

Hand Glass Mirror = The 4% life steal typically isn't worth the loss of damage in the early levels when a characters damage is already low. Slowing down your killing speed is bad for exp gains which you need more than this paltry lifesteal.

Bell = the gain to melee power and magic power over the loss of dodge is okay in the early game, but quickly falls off in usefulness. If you need melee power then the whetstone is way better of a choice. The whetstones attack speed also provides more dps for a magic build over the the +1 magic power here. Just really not a good items to buy compared to other items in the same tier.

Shadow Mushroom = same as the Bell. The small amount of melee power and magic power for the loss of vitality early on could be deadly to many early game classes.

Waterskin = Recovery in this game in general is bad. So gaining 5 recovery for a loss of movement speed is pretty bad. Golem and the Priestess based characters are the only ones that can use this somewhat effectively.

Guardian Belt = Vitality and a bad amount of armor for the slots taken to lose movement speed is pretty bad. Basically only useable by the Adept and Golem.

Fist weapons = in general, fist weapons are awful. They are straight line single target weapons. They have a hard time hitting enemies and just bad DPS in conjunction with their tendency to miss. Exception is the Claw which is a swiping fist weapon.

Smoke Pellets = the small amount of dodge for the loss of damage is again not really worth it unless playing the Scout.

Spyglass = This is actually decent enough to use in the early game for extra range. It does cost you dodge, but dodge items don't typically show up, except smoke pellets, until later in the game. So having negative dodge is like having zero dodge which most classes start with anyhow. There are better range items later like the Lantern and the Malevolent Observer for examples. Still, most classes can get by without needing the additional range early game.

Lifestone = This green looking egg gives recovery, a small amount of vitality, and reduces luck by quite a bit. This isn't worth getting for almost any character. The loss of luck early really does hurt getting better items that are desperately needed early. The Priestess classes are about the only ones that can actually use this item somewhat.

Sawblade Launcher = is this a joke weapon? Barely does any damage for the slots it takes up. It is slow and the bounce damage is laughable as it only bounces to 1 target.

Hunter's Hat = basically a ranger only item. The bonuses don't really fit most builds. The lack of movement speed for just a small amount of melee power, projectile power, and the laughable 1 armor isn't worth it.

Smoking Pipe = 8% damage for the loss of range isn't the worst. However as a 3 slot item it just isn't generally worth it for the small DPS gain.

Medallion of Might = Basically a ranger only item as projectile power with melee power isn't useful for most builds. It can be used, but there are way better items that take up the same space without the big negative to dodge chance.

Flagellant's Crown = A small bonus to all damage types based on recovery. Again recovery isn't a good stat in this game and this item is really only useful to the Priestess classes which can't use lifesteal items. The trade off being that this items makes recovery even more useless. Where before it took 20 recovery = 1 HP gain a second, it is 80 recovery now for 1 HP gain a second with this item.

Herb = Recovery plus Dodge bonus for a loss of damage. Recovery being a bad stat here and dodge being better from other items makes this item very subpar.

Crown of Bloodthorn = Lots of lifesteal is good. Extra Damage from Lifesteal is good. The huge hit to Vitality is very bad. The loss to vitality can be made up with other items considering how late in most runs this shows up at least. Still very rarely end up taking in this in favor the far superior Vampires Heart lifesteal item.

**** SITUATIONAL ITEMS****
Dual Sword = First off the shape of the weapon makes it hard to put it adjacent to other weapons to spread its benefits to other weapons. Second, having to sit still early game is rough and usually killer. However, you can make do with small movements and then stopping to get some dps back. Its rough to do early, but not impossible. Late game this weapon in the right builds can be deadly.

Hammers = Low DPS but ok AoE potential. The big problem with hammers is their lack of attack speed. That and there are only 3 hammer types in the game. The fact that Throwing Hammers don't count as melee weapons is rough if you are looking to stick it next to items that buff melee weapons.

Polearms = most polearms are straight line weapons. Crimson Scythe and Halberd being the exceptions. That means they tend to miss a lot. They also tend to have low DPS early due to slow attack speeds while taking up a huge amount of inventory slots that could be usually filled with 2 weapons of other types.

Daggers = Straight line attack weapons. These weapons tend to have problems hitting targets and only hit 1 at a time. Sure they only take up 3 slots, but are in general bad. The Vorpal Blade though kicks butt as a unique dagger that also swipes for some reason. Throwing Daggers also kick butt through the entire game and can enable other throwing weapons that get stacking bonuses being next to other throwing weapons.

Feather Quill = its okay for magic builds, but really need to get overcome the attack speed loss as that hurts DPS a lot. Still +luck and +mag power is okay enough to take if you can get attack speed items fast enough.

Cleaver = this weapon takes up a huge amount of slots and the attacks are straight line. Occasionally it does a weak ground slam attack that basically "extends" its damage in a straight line. If stacking other Mighty weapons near by that extension can go pretty far, but there aren't many weapons with the Mighty tag in the game and they are all huge. It is also slow to attack with making the DPS for this pretty low in the early game.

Dice = Love and hate these. Great for getting early luck and some crit, but the loss of attack speed makes this very situational in the early game as that loss of DPS from the attack speed can be very bad.

Ruined Bowpiece = the projectile power for lack of range... very situational trade off. Can be overcome with the spyglass, but then you lose dodge. Which is OK early. Projectile damage overall is subpar though compared to melee and magic damage.

Resource Items = All resource generating items are very situational. Money isn't that hard to come by. Resource items are a big thing when playing the Beggar and Merchant, but aren't really a big deal for most classes. They aren't the worst items to pick, but basically something to take if you don't have anything else to fill in a slot.

Storm Eye = this item for non moving builds is crazy good. For everyone else this item is crazy bad. Pure situational item.

Sacred Leaf = lots of Vitality and Armor but basically you can't heal while fighting on a floor. Very situational item here. Almost on the subpar list. However, with enough armor and dodge, not having any healing isn't that big of a deal.

Crystal Flower = +Recovery for -Lifesteal usually isn't a good deal. Recovery is vastly worse than lifesteal. It is decent for the the Priestess class and the + magic power can be used by magic classes. Still it is a very situational item.

Yo bro .. we're playing same game? .. exept the drum stuff i kinda disagree with almost everything you wrote there ( just was reading up to "situational Items" tho)

[::Maethendias::]

honestly, just use like, 5 ebony daggers if you need to win a run

doesnt even matter what quality you do or which character you are playing

get range get attack speed and the rest is literally free

also the guy who just complained about daggers being bad, i dont htink he has acutally played the game considering that daggers are literally the only weapon in the game (aside from projectiles) that dont have bugged hitboxes and never miss lol

[Prometheus]

Most of the comments on the big list are at least a little bit wrong in reasoning even if the item is bad. Full agreement on the drums and the items that cost 3 slots for tiny bonuses AND a penalty.

Also dual swords only situational? Unless you are a class that is penalized for using them in some way they are OPAF. Standing still they alone can do most of the killing in early waves of difficulty 5. That they are two separate weapons that can target separate enemies and do a sweep makes them crazy. Add that they share their huge speed bonus with adjacent weapons and boom, wincon. I don't know what the doofus was complaining about adjacency being too hard. One square of connection is all you need. That they are so big is actually a benefit. Its easy to hook several weapons to them.

My vote for worst items are the hammers. They are too slow and too low damage for how tiny their AoE is. The sweeping weapons hit more enemies more reliably than hammers do.

[Zev]

Originally posted by Promethian:

Most of the comments on the big list are at least a little bit wrong in reasoning even if the item is bad. Full agreement on the drums and the items that cost 3 slots for tiny bonuses AND a penalty.

I think there is no bad items (excluding war drum), its just situational items, and items that are not as good. I think this persons list is more of a newish player and doesnt see the synergies with all the items or even just ignoring the purpose of the item itself like the Flagellant's Crown. Complaning that it makes the 80 recovery going from 4hp a sec to 1hp a second, and ignoring the fact that its giving 40 FLAT DAMAGE TO ALL TYPES. Overall not seeing the value in range as well as worried about vitality early game shows that he is probably a newish player. Calling a crusader a weak class is hallarious too, but that probably goes with his undervalue of range. I dont use a single weapon (except shields of course) as a crusader past wave 4 or so. I sell it. I did a run today trying out the update and I never even took damage as a Crusader because you EASILY end up with 75% damage reduction and 10 or so shields that block 18 damage a hit with a 5 second cooldown. With enough range, it basically covers the whole screen, and with enough attack speed, it kills crazy fast. I cleared D5 boss in 5 seconds as crusader.

Overall, its just a bad list.

[MassMetalizer]

Originally posted by ::Maethendias:::

honestly, just use like, 5 ebony daggers if you need to win a run

doesnt even matter what quality you do or which character you are playing

get range get attack speed and the rest is literally free

Ebony Daggers are such a sneakily amazing weapon. I definitely didn't pay enough attention to them when I was starting out.

[I paid $100 for Diablo 3]

Originally posted by ::Maethendias:::

honestly, just use like, 5 ebony daggers if you need to win a run

Yup. The Ebony Daggers are incredibly good.
To anyone having difficulty clearing C5, try a Singularist build and pick up an Ebony dagger. It's insane how fast your damage will go up.
And this may seem obvious, but don't sell/replace it for a higher tier ED (Upgrade your 'starting' Ebony Dagger instead), your current ED will almost certainly outdamage any higher tier ones thanks to its passive +1 damage gain stacking.

[CheckYourSix]

Newish player? Do you see my post of all my full D5 videos? I have most of the achievements unlocked, and over 100 hours played. I don't think you guys get what I am saying with my list. Bad is practically crap items that have negatives that far outweigh any positive and there are vastly better items that do what positive they provide without the horrendous negative. There are only 4 bad items in the game. Subpar items are just that. Sub par. Like look at the Bell for example. Tier 1 item with a crappy positive and a negative that outweighs the positive. That is especially true comparing it to the whetstone. The whetstone provides more melee power and even attack speed that gives more DPS that the single plus 1 to magic power for magic builds. It Is the epitome if a subpar item. It is outclassed by another item in every way in the same tier. Can someone use a Bell in their build? Yes. Does it make it a good item? No.

Situational doesn't mean bad at all. Just means these are items for specific builds and synergies. Unlike something like Assassin Gloves which are a must take item regardless of build, situational items are great to godly for some builds but not all.

[KellyR]

Originally posted by CheckYourSix:

Raven's Feather = Stacking Dodge chance (up to the max) in exchange for stacking negative movement debuff? No thank you. If your dodge is low enough to benefit from the stacks, then it is low enough to be hit often to the point you character can't move at all. It is a dumb item.

Gold Chain = crap for every class but the Beggar and maybe the Merchant. The huge loss to movement speed and dodge chance is not worth any amount of resource gain for every character. Money just isn't an issue for most classes.

Disagree with a bunch of your list, but also you're straight up wrong about the Feather. It doesn't give a stacking dodge chance at all, it gives stacking damage boost when you do dodge. You buy it as the capstone that gets you to the dodge cap (80, 85, 90, or 95, depending on whether you have the Fan, and whether you're the Scout or not). When you're at the point where you're going to dodge everything anyway, you may as well get bonus damage from it.

As for the Chain... It's not bad, actually. Building for movement speed is a noob trap most of the time. It's far easier to tank movement speed and get the red monocle (I can never remember its name) and the Hourglass later. Assuming you have the hourglass, the -move speed counteracts the -dodge (Since you get dodge for -movespeed) and if you have the monocle you're getting attack speed and range at the same time. So it's just all win.

Unless I'm playing one of the Lancer characters (And even then, Sentinel wants to be immobile so...) I deliberately look for -movespeed and try to get my speed as low as possible without tanking anything else I care about. I maybe go for a +movespeed build one in 20 runs or so, just for variety, but -movespeed is easier and almost always stronger.

So, given that, I usually take the chain. The gold bonus is meh, but that -10 movespeed with nothing obnoxious like -lifesteal or -armor or whatever is too good to pass up.

TBH I also can't really agree with your hate on the mushrooms. They're absolutely a better choice than the red feathers, which are your only two magic power choices in the early game, unless you count the bell (Which I don't, really).

The thing is, if you're playing a Wizard you're quite likely using the shield amulet, which means that you want that surrounded by magic power items ASAP and basically screw vitality. If you're playing Warlock, you need magic power to fuel your DoT if you're using the curse book, and it's frankly more important than a little loss of vitality.

And in either case, losing attack speed is way too painful to countenance, so even though the feather has a measly +1 luck that is certainly nice, it's just not worth it and I'd take the mushroom over it a good 8 or 9 times out of 10.

And if you're not playing wizard or warlock classes, why are you even looking at magic power in the first place?

Are the mushrooms amazing? Hell no. You're absolutely planning to replace them later with the flower things, the crystal balls, even the amulets that slap you with -crit, whatever, but in the early game they're completely fine. The loss of vitality isn't going to lose you a game unless you suck.

[Kotli]

Ritual doll usefulness is dependent on if you can heal fast enough to counter the downside which basically means do you have enough attacks and leech?