Naginata Katana

[Minty]

So, I’ve been building a nice, competent team of tech-hunting samurai based on the conscript archetype (conscript leather, clothpants, modded masks, etc), and naturally I’m looking at combining the naginata with the short-cleaver in preparation for a machine-heavy endgame, and I was wondering if someone could enlighten me as to why the naginata katana is such a reviled/unused weapon that no one ever talks about as a serious primary.

I get that it has less reach than the naginata, and as far as I know there is no Meitou version to be found anywhere, but +25% to both human and animal damage with a lower indoor penalty (not an issue anyway with sidearms equipped) has to count for something, right? Is it just one of those hybrid weapons that gets outperformed by both its larger and smaller alternatives, or is there something seriously broken when it comes to using it? I’ve always seen these in shops and considered buying them, but there seems to be something of a stigma surrounding them, and I’m genuinely trying to figure out where that comes from.

I tried to do more research on the weapon, but almost no one has anything to say about it.

[Pyrrhus]

This weapon is usually good for early game characters due to lightweight and bonuses. After characters gain enough strengths then it'd be time for something heavier. NK is basically a stick in late game for high skilled characters.

[Minty]

Originally posted by Pyrrhus:

This weapon is usually good for early game characters due to lightweight and bonuses. After characters gain enough strengths then it'd be time for something heavier. NK is basically a stick in late game for high skilled characters.

Now we’re getting somewhere. Is the natural transition into heavy weapons or into the naginata/heavy polearm?

[Pyrrhus]

Naginata is almost same as NK, usually good if you're dealing with just animals or planning to. NK is more standard issue to deal with both humans and animals. Raising polearm skills after using NK for awhile helps characters ready to use heavy polearm better. Not always transition from NK to heavy polearm, more of to role preference for players. Early characters just need good weapons that they could handle, NK is one of those.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Pyrrhus:

... Early characters just need good weapons that they could handle, NK is one of those.

^-- This.

There are better weapons for specialized purposes that are also better mid and end-game choices. There's nothing really "wrong" with the NK for what it's used for.

I'm equipping "farmers" with them. That's good for them as it gives them a decent, fast, weapon for what they're most likely to face - Lightly armed opponents like starving/hungry bandits and animals like bonedogs. I don't expect them to continue the fight with such a weapon, just do a bit of damage against bandit types and maybe get a lucky hit in on an animal before I tell them to run away.

I could just give them sabers and hope for the +def to do it's job. But, at least the NK has a bit more reach. The real problem there, though? Characters do not respond to hostiles unless they're targeted directly or someone in their group who is also very nearby is targeted and, even then, they often don't deviate from their Job until they are directly under attack themselves or the character they're trying to aid has already take a hit.

No amount of weapon-planning is useful unless the character then chooses to use the weapon, it seems? Imagine that! :) If they would pre-emptively choose to use their weapon in response to the oncoming charge of a hostile, i'd give them all Crossbows. But, they won't...

PS- Having a broad selection of weapons with a heavy focus on Armor mitigating weapons across one's entire squad is a good choice for general combat purposes. A couple of characters armed with these sorts of weapons that could only shine in certain circumstances isn't a bad thing, really. Provided, however, one does't go too far and isolate the group's bonuses only focusing on one specific type of combat and then thinking they'll perform similarly across the entire spectrum of fights they're likely to engage in.

[Locklave]

I'd recommend the standard Polearm over literally all other Polearms.

The standard has

+30% Armor Pen, which is huge against the serious threats late game. Still good early game.
+50% vs Animals, enough said (you seem to know how important this is)
+6 attack, effecting attack speed in addition to hit chance (attack/dex/weapon = attack speed)
28 reach, which is only matched by the Naginata (just talking polearms) Required to take down swarms fast with multi hits. The others have 26 reach.

Damage balance Cutting/Blunt, often overlooked by people. It's almost equal on the base Polearm.

Blunt damage is more effective against all (edit: medium/heavy) armor (trains Str stat on every swing based on output).

Cutting which keeps enemies down via bleeding (trains Dex stat on every swing based on output).

Meaning troops in general will have a better stat build balance from just combat and str/dex can both be trained. The other polearms are all terrible for str training because the balance is so cutting focused.

The Human damage Bonus is wasted because they almost all have armor (any you'd find dangerous that is) so the +25% isn't that huge. In addition the bulk of the damage is cutting which is lack luster against armor. The standard Polearms +30% vs armor is useless on animals but it does a +50% increase on them.

The only advantage to the other Naginata variants is the possible double swing attack, but that just makes it a better weapon for 1 vs 1 fights as it's extremely unlikely to land on more then 1 enemy (the double swing that is).

Basically it comes down to what is most functional in a random fight. Naginata variants would be the best in specific fights 1 v 1 unarmored humanoids for example (bugmaster), where as standard Polearms would be solid in every fight and best vs heavy armor.

Short cleaver is the best off hand weapon imo, it's got the Damage Balance like the Polearm and you won't be fighting animals indoors. No real downside aside from the weight on the higher quality, but not a real problem.

edit:

Anything with Armor Pen and decent Blunt damage performs well late game and a fresh 1 in all stats slave can be deadly with polearms because of the hit bonus allowing them to overcome more skilled enemies defences.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Locklave:

I'd recommend the standard Polearm over literally all other Polearms...

Yup.... :)

...Short cleaver is the best off hand weapon imo, it's got the Damage Balance like the Polearm and you won't be fighting animals indoors. No real downside aside from the weight on the higher quality, but not a real problem.

One thing worth noting is that Sabres don't have an indoor penalty. If that's a primary weapon it will still be used indoors unless one purposefully gives the character a indoor-bonus secondary. (ie: Unless one arms them with a Wakizashi, IOW.) The shorter Cleavers in the Hacker Line should really get indoor bonuses, IMO. Because of this, that's their "downside" as a secondary. The only time your characters will use it, unless they're crossbow users, is indoors. So, why not stack an indoor bonus?

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, there's a limit to how effective min/maxing is in Kenshi. Sure, it's fun to do and I enjoy juggling ideas for weapon combos. But, in the end, it's really not that big a deal. If you're there, fighting something, your character's stats, appropriate armor for their stats/weapon choices, decent weapon choices and quality, are going to matter more than min/maxing any individual collection of weapons and gear.

But, players who like to roleplay and enjoy some meaty number-crunching fare to give them more inspiration for their roleplaying are well-served with playing with min/max ideas. it's fun. In the end, though, the Hound has the best advice for Kenshi players...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRY4Mpmfk1o
(Language Warning)

[Glean]

I personally like the nkat ok. It attacks almost as fast as the katana, dose almost as much damage, has much better reach(much better at hitting multi) and dosn't have the armor penalties.

The only reason I havn't used them going into late game is because I tend to like the standard polearm better. In my opinion tho, you could use them without any big problem. You might not be quite as efficient as using some of the "best" weapons, but really the difference isn't super big all things considered. I mean maybe you need to train a bit more for this fight or that fight, or take one more recruit or whatever. But if you wan't to use a certain weapon (even moreso than armor, which is also probably doable) it's not going to stop you from being able to eventually take all that the game has to give as far as content.

[Locklave]

I do agree about the limits to min maxing. It's mostly about finding something that suits your play style and is effective. Knowing the details really helps make that choice.

Things like the Heavy Polearm being lighter and not really doing more damage lol. It's counter intuitive in some places.

[Minty]

Originally posted by Locklave:

I'd recommend the standard Polearm over literally all other Polearms.

The standard has

+30% Armor Pen, which is huge against the serious threats late game. Still good early game.
+50% vs Animals, enough said (you seem to know how important this is)
+6 attack, effecting attack speed in addition to hit chance (attack/dex/weapon = attack speed)
28 reach, which is only matched by the Naginata (just talking polearms) Required to take down swarms fast with multi hits. The others have 26 reach.

Damage balance Cutting/Blunt, often overlooked by people. It's almost equal on the base Polearm.

Blunt damage is more effective against all (edit: medium/heavy) armor (trains Str stat on every swing based on output).

Cutting which keeps enemies down via bleeding (trains Dex stat on every swing based on output).

Meaning troops in general will have a better stat build balance from just combat and str/dex can both be trained. The other polearms are all terrible for str training because the balance is so cutting focused.

Basically the Human damage is wasted because they almost all have armor (any you'd find dangerous that is) so the +25% isn't that huge. In addition the bulk of the damage is cutting which is lack luster against armor. The standard Polearms +30% vs armor is useless on animals but it does a +50% increase on them.

The only advantage to the other Naginata variants is the possible double swing attack, but that just makes it a better weapon for 1 vs 1 fights as it's extremely unlikely to land on more then 1 enemy.

Basically it comes down to what is most functional in a random fight. Naginata variants would be the best in specific fights 1 v 1 unarmored humanoids for example (bugmaster), where as standard Polearms would be solid in every fight and best vs heavy armor.

Short cleaver is the best off hand weapon imo, it's got the Damage Balance like the Polearm and you won't be fighting animals indoors. No real downside aside from the weight on the higher quality, but not a real problem.

edit:

Anything with Armor Pen and decent Blunt damage performs well late game and a fresh 1 in all stats slave can be deadly with polearms because of the hit bonus allowing them to overcome more skilled enemies defences.

Brilliant and thorough answer. Thank you for taking the time to write all that out. Very useful for me. I think I’m going straight into the standard polearm as soon as I can for the bulk of the crew if it has all the advantages you’ve mentioned here. Combine those with the short-cleaver (or possibly even the jitte for the indoor/defense bonuses and the blunt damage vs machines - my understanding being that weapons which heavily favour cutting damage are bad vs bots) and I’m betting I have a fairly decent multi-stage setup going that I won’t have to retrain out of.

The last thing I want to do with this run is constantly swap out weapons and grind them up before they’re optimal. Based on what others have said about secondaries, am I off-base by assuming that the jitte is a perfectly viable backup/indoor weapon?

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Locklave:

...Things like the Heavy Polearm being lighter and not really doing more damage lol. It's counter intuitive in some places.

^-- This.

I gave a Heavy Polearm to a Hiver Prince that is just going to do "Science Stuffs." Why? I dunno... Why not?

"He's going to mostly be inside, I guess, and Polearms are awesome and Heavy Polearms don't have as much of a penalty indoors, so..." <-Reasoning. (Not "Good Reasoning." :) )

I also have a character that "refuses", for roleplaying reasons, to use anything other than a Nodachi... Those are good enough reasons for me!

But, the toughest bartard with the best armor and the biggest nastiest weapon with the skill and stats to use it is always gonna win.

Martial Artists dueling in single-combat excepted, of course. :)

[Glean]

Originally posted by Locklave:

I'd recommend the standard Polearm over literally all other Polearms.


The Human damage Bonus is wasted because they almost all have armor (any you'd find dangerous that is) so the +25% isn't that huge. In addition the bulk of the damage is cutting which is lack luster against armor. The standard Polearms +30% vs armor is useless on animals but it does a +50% increase on them.

I wonder how the math works out on this. I've always assumed that the +25% almost makes up for not having armor pen on hvy armor, and is better than it on lighter armor. I guess it would depend on how the damage/armor/bonus formula is set up, don't suppose anyone has done any tests? (I know 25 is less than 30, but how much less is what I'm getting at)

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Naginata Katana is a wildly inferior weapon for trained people. Even for recruits, you're better off giving them the full-length Naginata or the Polearm. If you find like a really good Naginata Katana (Like MK1/Edge early, and you're still on Old Refitted/Catun stuff) go ahead and use it.

Heavy Polearm is quite good, even endgame, it represents one of the fastest anti-armor weapons, and retains quite potent damage (High Cut modifier, plus Anti-Armor) and has solid range. When I graduate Light Infantry into Lancers or Dragoons (if you're curious about the distinction, a Lancer uses Heavy Armor, a Dragoon uses Light) (>40 DEX/Melee/Polearm Skill), they transition to the Heavy Polearm. You lose the Polearm's excellent crowd control ability (not entirely) but gain much better damage. Reaching that critical point where your troops have enough skill to start tearing down enemies quickly is key to the transition in order to overcome the loss of stun sweep crowd control.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by Maus:

Brilliant and thorough answer. Thank you for taking the time to write all that out. Very useful for me. I think I’m going straight into the standard polearm as soon as I can for the bulk of the crew if it has all the advantages you’ve mentioned here. Combine those with the short-cleaver (or possibly even the jitte for the indoor/defense bonuses and the blunt damage vs machines - my understanding being that weapons which heavily favour cutting damage are bad vs bots) and I’m betting I have a fairly decent multi-stage setup going that I won’t have to retrain out of.

The last thing I want to do with this run is constantly swap out weapons and grind them up before they’re optimal. Based on what others have said about secondaries, am I off-base by assuming that the jitte is a perfectly viable backup/indoor weapon?

The Jitte is a great weapon but it has issues mainly related to damage output being lacking. It's an amazing weapon don't get me wrong. It's just weighted super heavy into survival vs killing.

Honestly it's a play style thing.

Weapon swapping is annoying game play for sure, but consider secondary weapons you keep in storage (not in your bags) for specific missions. Like if you are planning on hitting up Ancient building for loot and robots are likely to the threat, Paladins crosses give +50% vs robots most hacker weapons are great vs robots. A lot of those big buildings allow 2 handed weapons without needing to switch.

On a side note the Polearm is great for farming beak thing eggs which is great cash, just don't over reach and get eaten lol. 4000g an egg if you can get to the nest.

Also, ya bots don't bleed (or hardly bleed rather) so cutting generally loses it's advantage. Many blunt weapons get bonuses vs Robots, even super common ones like the Mercs club.

[Locklave]

Originally posted by Glean:

Originally posted by Locklave:

I'd recommend the standard Polearm over literally all other Polearms.


The Human damage Bonus is wasted because they almost all have armor (any you'd find dangerous that is) so the +25% isn't that huge. In addition the bulk of the damage is cutting which is lack luster against armor. The standard Polearms +30% vs armor is useless on animals but it does a +50% increase on them.

I wonder how the math works out on this. I've always assumed that the +25% almost makes up for not having armor pen on hvy armor, and is better than it on lighter armor. I guess it would depend on how the damage/armor/bonus formula is set up, don't suppose anyone has done any tests? (I know 25 is less than 30, but how much less is what I'm getting at)

The armors range is so crazy it's hard to create something solid to show anyone, it would for sure look like a line/bar graph showing the scaling.

There are enemies with specialist and masterwork armor, that means massive damage reduction. Say they have 70ish% damage reduction (ignore toughness the math is too many steps) and you do 100 damage it's only 30 vs him at +25% =37.5 damage (I might be wrong on % applying after reduction) but +30% armor pen would drop there armor to (70% x .70) = 49% = 51 damage. They might have more armor and even layers.

There are enemies with more then 80% damage reduction. These can be long bloody fights where that increase is life or death. The Armor Pen doesn't do a huge amount on weaker enemies but still provides a solid increase.

Anyone feel free to correct my math or increase the details, I'm being lazy on the details in this case as it's really complex.

[Peregrine]

I keep a wide selection of weapons in my armory at home, and use a pack bull to haul a few of each around.

(Mostly Naginata, Katana, some Sabers, and Paladin Cross, food, medical and extra bolts for the crossbowmen, and leaves extra room for situational clothing and or loot)

It's a way to bring a bit more to any fight without encumbering my fighters too much.