As a starter, should I get a crossbow at all?

[Megakruemel[GER]]

I'm relatively new to the game as I have only played around 12 hours but for the record, I have owned the game for about a year and I watch content online.

Are crossbows okay for solo-ish play? What I mean is, that I want to make a relatively small squad only and don't want to recruit entire armies. I just want to establish a base somewhere with walls and make it a farm that also has a copper or iron mine.

The thing is, should I get a crossbow relatively early? It appears that they are pretty unreliable in early game.

[MadArtillery]

Crossbows are utterly broken and you can solo most of all the game without taking any damage regardless of what you are fighting. Honestly if you want to really experience the game I wouldn't reccomend crossbows as they are really not balanced at all. It's not like you need to do much in the way of skilling up to do it either or have good equipment. Altheltics skill which is always going to be high pretty quick is all it takes.

[[MNI] Kisune]

I think yes if you just take a cheap crossbow you can already do some dmg before the enemy even gets to you coupled with the fact that money isnt all that much of a problem (mining could always save you if you go broke) and its usualy best to go for katanas (many good ones can be carried as a secondary weapon) early on so there is no downside to using a crossbow
of course friendly fire should be watched but with a small squad you can usualy avoid it pretty well (you might also pick up a somewhat better one and just start shooting at animals or the like passing bye a city while sitting on the walls)

[[MNI] Kisune]

Publicado originalmente por MadArtillery:

Crossbows are utterly broken and you can solo most of all the game without taking any damage regardless of what you are fighting. Honestly if you want to really experience the game I wouldn't reccomend crossbows as they are really not balanced at all.

Well thats mostly if you micromanage or cheese the game
and to be fair in that case this game is extremly easy just bye design

[Legion]

Micromanagement is only required early on in the game. Once you get leveled enough, you can sit there idly and let your dude(s) wreak havoc on their own.

[[MNI] Kisune]

Well the micromanagement part was mostly about soloing stuff with a crossbow (and that does require micromanagement forever)
But we do go off topic over here

[Morkonan]

Publicado originalmente por MegakruemelGER:

...
The thing is, should I get a crossbow relatively early? It appears that they are pretty unreliable in early game.

(Note: I haven't played in awhile, so the following is based on experience from several patches ago. If Crossbow mechanics have changed since then, the below may not be valid.)

Yes, you should get a Toothpick as soon as you can reasonably afford one or are able to craft one. Sooner, even...

It defies all of the standard rules of Kenshi combat and is the only vanilla way for characters to overcome the one-combantant vs combatant rule aside from AOE melee attacks with big weapons.

Crossbows are... overpowered as heck. More than one of them at a time can hit an opponent, even while they're in melee with another character, and they cause bleed and stagger effects.... OVERPOWERED AS HECK! :)

That being said, you should specialize characters as designated shooters.

The best "All 'rounder" crossbow for damage, rate of fire, and accuracy is going to be the Old World MkII, IMO. That's what you'd give your mainline DPS shooters. Eagle's Crosses are for blowing off limbs... anyones. Be careful with those at close ranges where your own troops might get hit. They're for your Sniper-type characters and can take out targets on their own at range.

However... Crossbows are overpowered as heck. Seriously... A group of nobody-level characters can nearly perma-stagger-lock a target. Imagine fighting a big nasty thing that can get staggered and half your characters are armed with fast-shooting Toothpicks. That "Big Bad" is going to spend a lot of time doing nothing at all but getting plinked by low-dps bolts coupled with overpowered-stagger-effects.

It's been awhile since I played. If a patch has come out that reduced/eliminated stagger effects, then they may not feel as "cheaty" as they used to. That's (was) the worst thing about Crossbows - They're just too darn overpowered. For myself, I had to purposefully limit their use if I actually wanted to see "cool melee combat" else few things I could actually target at range could hurt my characters.

So... yeah, get a crossbow when you can, preferably Toothpicks. Use their rate of fire to help level up the character's skill along with being armed with a Katana. (You could, if you wished, arm them with the short Cleavers. I find that to be a decent combo for Crossbowers when inside buildings (with bots or just armored foes in general. Though, training and fighting with Katanas coupled with Crossbows will level their associated stats quickly.)

PS - Given that things haven't changed relating to Crossbows, you could arm a whole squad with Toothpicks and very nearly waltz your way around the map as long as you could see what you were shooting at...

[Legion]

Publicado originalmente por MNI Kísune:

Well the micromanagement part was mostly about soloing stuff with a crossbow (and that does require micromanagement forever)
But we do go off topic over here

I never micromanage with a crossbow past required skill 60-70.

[Morkonan]

Publicado originalmente por Nomadic:

Publicado originalmente por MNI Kísune:

Well the micromanagement part was mostly about soloing stuff with a crossbow (and that does require micromanagement forever)
But we do go off topic over here

I never micromanage with a crossbow past required skill 60-70.

I don't know what "micromanage with a crossbow" means in the context it's being used? Does that mean "kiting" enemies with a crossbow or something? Maybe forcing stat increases through focused crossbow use? Avoiding friendly fire?

For the latter, there's not much point for Toothpicks to avoid FF issues, IMO. That's "skill points" no matter who it hits (Toughness for the target gets leveled, too.). :) I take squads full of noobie troops learning crossbows to The Foglands and just let them open up on every mass-combat opportunity and everyone seems pretty happy about the results.

I wouldn't do that past Ranger crossbow training, though. Old World and better crossbows don't go into the hands of unskilled users.

[Legion]

Publicado originalmente por Morkonan:

Publicado originalmente por Nomadic:

I never micromanage with a crossbow past required skill 60-70.

I don't know what "micromanage with a crossbow" means in the context it's being used? Does that mean "kiting" enemies with a crossbow or something? Maybe forcing stat increases through focused crossbow use? Avoiding friendly fire?

For the latter, there's not much point for Toothpicks to avoid FF issues, IMO. That's "skill points" no matter who it hits (Toughness for the target gets leveled, too.). :) I take squads full of noobie troops learning crossbows to The Foglands and just let them open up on every mass-combat opportunity and everyone seems pretty happy about the results.

I wouldn't do that past Ranger crossbow training, though. Old World and better crossbows don't go into the hands of unskilled users.

I have a Oldworld Bow MKll. My best ranged is skilled with Perception of 90, Crossbow of 86, and Precision Shooting of 93. My second best has a Three Shots Ranger with skills all in the 70 range. Even using just my weaker one by comparison, I can just sit there and do nothing while she wipes enemy squads.

[Morkonan]

Publicado originalmente por Nomadic:

I have a Oldworld Bow MKll. My best ranged is skilled with Perception of 90, Crossbow of 86, and Precision Shooting of 93. My second best has a Three Shots Ranger with skills all in the 70 range. Even using just my weaker one by comparison, I can just sit there and do nothing while she wipes enemy squads.

A true testimonial and worthy of any Crossbow Salesperson in the world of Kenshi. :)

<slaps the top of the crossbow>
"This crossbow can fit so many enemy kills in it."

I'm kind of surprised, but it doesn't seem any crossbow damage/bleed/stagger mechanics have been changed. Is that correct?

Don't get me wrong - I really enjoy Crossbows in Kenshi. Considering that a Crossbow user could end up being at a significant disadvantage in certain vanilla combat situations, there's a decent tradeoff there. But, there's practically no tradeoff at all when that experienced crossbow user is at range or backed up by some melee fighters. At that point, the crossbow just rises so very high to the top of the "I WANT ONE" list it's not easily ignored. Or superseded in terms of its overall combat multipliers, either. Stagger, multiple attacks against one target, bleed... What's not to love? :)

(I absolutely do micromanage Eagle's Cross users, even when they hit max accuracy - There comes a point when it just gets a bit silly. Limbs flying off everywhere... :))

[MadArtillery]

Honestly one unmentioned thing that makes crossbows broken is combat walks. Within a certain range enemies go into a combat stance that's speed doesn't scale with athletics. Some simple stutter stepping between shots and as long as you don't exceed the slow waddle range you are unlikely to even see an enemy attack animation especially with crossbow stagger. Yes that's still op enough to at times allow near constant shots without even taking a step if the animation times cooperate. They really need to get rid of that slow approach speed thing vs crossbows and they might be atleast slightly closer to balanced. If you absolutely positively can't afford to lose a fight it's litterally impossible not to win with a crossbow in inventory. Hard to bring myself to even equip one anymore.

There is still one downside to crossbows atleast, bad vs particularly heavy armour. Still stagger them though so *shrug*

[Bublon13]

Crossbows are not ok, they are OP

[Legion]

Publicado originalmente por Morkonan:

Publicado originalmente por Nomadic:

I have a Oldworld Bow MKll. My best ranged is skilled with Perception of 90, Crossbow of 86, and Precision Shooting of 93. My second best has a Three Shots Ranger with skills all in the 70 range. Even using just my weaker one by comparison, I can just sit there and do nothing while she wipes enemy squads.

A true testimonial and worthy of any Crossbow Salesperson in the world of Kenshi. :)

<slaps the top of the crossbow>
"This crossbow can fit so many enemy kills in it."

I'm kind of surprised, but it doesn't seem any crossbow damage/bleed/stagger mechanics have been changed. Is that correct?

Don't get me wrong - I really enjoy Crossbows in Kenshi. Considering that a Crossbow user could end up being at a significant disadvantage in certain vanilla combat situations, there's a decent tradeoff there. But, there's practically no tradeoff at all when that experienced crossbow user is at range or backed up by some melee fighters. At that point, the crossbow just rises so very high to the top of the "I WANT ONE" list it's not easily ignored. Or superseded in terms of its overall combat multipliers, either. Stagger, multiple attacks against one target, bleed... What's not to love? :)

(I absolutely do micromanage Eagle's Cross users, even when they hit max accuracy - There comes a point when it just gets a bit silly. Limbs flying off everywhere... :))

To be honest, I'm not too sure what ranged mechanics have been altered; I only started using crossbows about a month ago. And true, my ranged dudes can be at a heavy disadvantage, especially if another squad sneaks up on me, but that's usually when I put my second ranged into action and have them on standby.

[James Bondage]

Crossbows are very strong, but IMO you should always level your characters to a decent point (50+ in the melee attributes and skills) before switching them over, just to keep them alive and able to defend themselves in melee.

You should also start out with Toothpicks only to minimize the possibility of delimbing people with friendly fire.

[Legion]

Publicado originalmente por Imperial Guardsman:

Crossbows are very strong, but IMO you should always level your characters to a decent point (50+ in the melee attributes and skills) before switching them over, just to keep them alive and able to defend themselves in melee.

You should also start out with Toothpicks only to minimize the possibility of delimbing people with friendly fire.

Provided you have the funds for a prosthetic, maiming people isn't such a bad idea. Sure, it sucks if you're under attack, but survive the attack and you have an easy way to get better limbs.