Optimal gear for a martial artist

[Boogie Zero]

Hello, I'm interested in effects of equipment on martial artist performance. I was messing around with my MA and she was getting her.. bottom handed to herself more than I'd expect. I'm talking about stats over 60 (str, dex, dodge, toughness). What I've figured out was a issue with stun conversion.
In fact her armor was 40% and a shirt 10%. After removal of the armor piece things got a bit better. It all makes sense with regards to a following pinned post explaining how stun % works.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/discussions/2/133261907145702720/

What I want to actually know is if lighter armor provides any benefit for MA over the heavy counterpart with much lower stun conversion.

This question is meant apart from following:

• Stat modifiers - Heavy armor has some penalization to those. Let's say for the comparison I'm not using stealth and there are no negative multipliers for dodge, combat speed, etc.
  
• Encumbrance - The character has enough strength for a weightless status even with heavy armor.

What I'm getting at is use of gear for MA (Gi pants, shirt, ...). They provide +MA bonus but is it even worth using at later levels? Is adding few more points (70 + 3) by using MA gear any better than taking some heavy plates with high damage reduction.

Is there something I'm missing like using heavy armor reduces dodge chance, attack or something that is not displayed anywhere? Point is the character can wear anything without stats showing any difference (out or in combat attack, dodge, encumbrance, ... have same values.

Following this, on what basis advice like "use heavy armor for training MA " work. Is it actually only encumbrance? Does it have some hidden effect on training even while encumbrance is still 0% ?
Same goes for dodge training. I can see that you can train dodge by actually dodging or being hit while stumbling. I assume that the latter is "faster" therefore people use equip with dodge penalty as backpack or overloading themselves which causes for them to get hit more often.

Also does dexterity have anything to do with MA or is MA considered as using heavy weapon and thus strength affects both speed and damage?

Please correct me if I have a wrong idea about any of what I mentioned but I don't see any use of Gi gear (or any lighter gear for MA) and if you are willing to give up stealth heavy armor would provide more survivability and therefore is better choice overall. Everything is still considered with stats over 60. I can see use of lighter equip when you are not able to haul it properly without encumbrance penalty.


Yes I'm using mods to increase difficulty so everybody has a bit more stats, hit's harder and the effects of using correct equipment are not negligible. Sadly I'm not familiar with modding enough to test those things in perfect conditions.

Any advice, opinions, tips are welcome. Thank you :)

[balalaika86]

Generally, I only use Gi gear on my MA's until they are able to hit things with any regularity, which is usually around lvl 25 or so. After that they use Plate Jackets and Plated Longboots, which are Medium Armor. Generally, Plated Longboots are the best boots in the game, due to Samurai Boots giving some serious stat penalties. Samurai Clothpants or Drifter's Pants for the legs and either Police Helmet or Iron Hat for the Head. In my experience, these are the best items for a Martial Artist, since they don't carry penalties that impact your fighting skills particularly. I still use MA Bindings until at least level 40, though. After that, the damage to your hands becomes negligable, so you can replace it with Blackened Chainmail.

AFAIK, "use heavy armor for training" is really only about encumberance. Packing a backpack full of Iron Ore works just aswell.

Dexterity has no real impact on MA, since the skill deals blunt damage, not cutting damage. Instead, Strength is what affects MA's speed.

[Agent 53]

I had one guy with a masterwork dustcoat, leather shirt, ashland hat, drifter's boots and drifter's leggings. At 60+ MA with 60+ strength it really came down to who hit first. I was one-shotting bandits and holy nation paladins. He was my traveler/scout/thief so he operates alone most of the time. Bandit groups were no problem, stronger groups were more of a problem. Getting hit in such light armor hurts, and I had some pretty close calls with decent level patrols. So I stole Emperor Tengu's Nodachi and gave it to him. Once his defense and katana skills picked up it was a much better fit with the light armor. So if you're going MA I would refer to the above post. The better protection with no penalties is much better than going fully light armor.

[Danteet]

Strength is the only secondary stat that affects damage output for ma. dex does nothing for ma at all. More encumberance will add penalties to your dodge stat, so you can train str and dodge well at the same time. This is where heavy plate/ samurai armor comes in to play for me. I have been experimenting with light armor vs heavy armor and there is a big difference. at lower levels 40- ma/ dodge heavy armor seems to be the victor in heated battles as dodge works really well for single targets, Ive noticed my char getting hit when close to allies because the dodge will not proc on "accidental" hits. As soon as your legs get hit your dodge gets huge penalties and the heavy armor really helps tanking bigger hits. later level 80+ I go assassins rags, samurai clothpants, blackened chain, rattan hat, wooden sandals( youre basically one shotting everyone at this point and no penalties to dodge makes you zip around like an unhittable god.) plus by the time you get thst high your toughness should be high 80s and you barely take any damage at all.

[yippeekiay]

My best MA used to wear all MA stuff where possible, then I too thought there was no point as she was strong enough to wear stuff to protect her that had to be worth more than the +2 to MA those GI pieces were giving her with no protection at all.

So, now she has a (MW) Police Helmet, MA Bindings to save her fists, (MW) Drifters Leather Pants, (MW) Plated Longboots & something I'd mssed previously......

!!! (MW) Sleeveless Dustcoat which gives 60% Acid & Burning protection PLUS +4 to MA !!!.

I didn't even realise that armour had MA bonus until I stumbled upon it when sorting out all my crap. Who knows if I've actually missed something better. I should check as I'm sure I have every piece of armour available in storage... but I can't be bothered lol ;o)

I was going to give her a (MW) Blackened Chainmail Shirt but decided to leave the bindings on as I like the look they give her.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1372901657

[balalaika86]

IIRC, the MA bonus on Sleeveless Dustcoat was added pretty recently.

[Boogie Zero]

Basically I was (and partialy am) using setup just like you guys described. (Blackened chain, clothpants and plates). It seems like the best bet. As I mentioned I'm using mods for higher dificulty so toughness helps but isn't solution in itself. I think this setup is quite optimal even in this case.

My character: (str 65, toug 71, dodge 65, ma 61)

Agreed on the fact that Gi equipment is little bit lack luster, especially later on.

I'd like to menton few things that made me think about this a little bit more. (It is a bit lengty so proceed with caution xD )
Consider following:
Blackened Chain Shirt (56% -10% stun)
White Plate Jacket (54% -40% stun)
(both are masterwork)

Blackened Chain Shirt + White Plate Jacket:
100 dmg -> 46 + (stun: 21,6) after WPJ -> 20,24 + (stun: 2,6) after both
You will receive 20,24 dmg + 24,2 from both stuns (stun possibly even bypasses toughness?) I'm not sure about the bypass of a toughness so I'll use 44,4 dmg for comparison.

Blackened Chain Shirt:
100 dmg -> 44 + (stun: 5,6) = 49,6

With and without masterwork grade plate jacket It is only 5,2 dmg difference. This result got me thinking that MAYBE some kind of light armor with nice bonuses would be much better option than I previously thought.

For example I have something similar but it's not vanilla and it's standard quality so I'll use hypotetical piece of armor with beter and worse stats:
(30% -20%stun) armor + (56% -10% stun) shirt
100 dmg -> 70 + (stun: 6) -> 30,8 + (stun: 3,9) = 40,7

(20% -20%stun) armor + (56% -10% stun) shirt
100 dmg -> 80 + (stun: 4) -> 35,2 + (4,5) = 43,7

Results for 100 cut dmg will cause:
Blackened Chan shirt -> 49,6
Blackened Chain shirt + White Plate Jacket (54% -40% stun) -> 44,44
Blackened Chain shirt + "(30% -20%stun)" -> 40,7
Blackened Chain shirt + "(20% -20%stun)" -> 43,7

Point of this is that the stun % conversion is very important stat and should not be taken lightly. If you shift from (50% -40% stun) to (30% -20% stun) you will end up with better protection as the stun dmg ignores any following clothing (you are missing out on dmg reduction from other pieces as stun does "true" damage).

Even latter example (20% -20%stun) armor with same coverage would provide "equivalent" protection to the White Plate jacket (54% -40%stun). This doesn't seem so intuitive right away.

On the other hand this was calculated only for chest and only CUT damage as an example. Of course you have to consider other parts of a body and blunt damage that works as you would expect. Original piece of armor that I used as a base for the "hypotetical armor" doesn't have as great coverage as Plate Jacket which covers everything well, including hands.

Desired setup would be the lowest %stun conversion on pieces in order (head, armor, shirt, pants, boots) so the stun damage isn't an issue.

Originally posted by yippeekiay:

!!! (MW) Sleeveless Dustcoat which gives 60% Acid & Burning protection PLUS +4 to MA !!!.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1372901657

Dustcoat (45% -80%stun)
Dustcoat looks nice but the 80% looks scary.

Sleeveless Dustcoat:
100 dmg -> 55 + (stun: 36) = 91
Blackened Chain shirt + Sleeveless Dustcoat
100 dmg -> 55 + (stun: 36) -> 24,2 + (stun: 3,1) = 63,3

There is of course the coverage where dustcoat provides cover even for legs. This effect may not be desirable though. 100 damage hit registered to a leg will cause 36 damage imediatelly regardless of protection on pants and boots. 36% of cut damage has free pass because of the coat. If the hit is registered to the coat it has 60% coverage for legs so 40% of time the coat does nothing for legs.
Blunt damage is completely different case as it's absolutelly positive thing to wear this coat it for that kind of protection :) +4 MA is nice bonus.

I'm also choosing equip based on how it looks, that's actually half of the reason why I'm here :p

I'd also like to know if stun damage ignores toughness. It is mentioned in the post I linked before (https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/discussions/2/133261907145702720/). It's an older discussion so I'm not sure if it holds (For example it seems like stealth modifies on equip now stack. Including positive and negative).

If I made mistakes please correct me I tried to check twice but.. you know. I might be even wrong on how this calculation works it's based on the linked post.

[Regyptian]

Originally posted by balalaika86:

Dexterity has no real impact on MA, since the skill deals blunt damage, not cutting damage.

Are you sure about that?
When you hover over the dexterity stat, cutting damage output is shown.

Edit: nevermind, it says weapon cutting damage.

[Boogie Zero]

Originally posted by Regyptian:

Originally posted by balalaika86:

Dexterity has no real impact on MA, since the skill deals blunt damage, not cutting damage.

Are you sure about that?
When you hover over the dexterity stat, cutting damage output is shown.

I think that is correct. I expected that it does nothing for MA. Yes it affects cutting damage but I'd think that MA does blunt damage.

[balalaika86]

Originally posted by Regyptian:

Originally posted by balalaika86:

Dexterity has no real impact on MA, since the skill deals blunt damage, not cutting damage.

Are you sure about that?
When you hover over the dexterity stat, cutting damage output is shown.

Edit: nevermind, it says weapon cutting damage.

Like Boogie says, MA does blunt damage.

[Regyptian]

Originally posted by zxzSCARFACEzxz:

What's the best way to train for MA?

Lot of fighting and being overencumbered. Bonus if both at the same time.

[SnugSnug]

Originally posted by Boogie Zero:

So lets go hypethertical again assuming cut damage only.

2layer
layer 1: 100 damage 100% coverage 50% stop 50% stun = 50 damage through +25 stun through
layer 2: 50 remaining damage 100% coverage, 50% stop 10 stun = 25 damage through + 2.5 stun
total = 25/toughness + 27 stun.

1 layer
100 damage 100% coverage 50% stop 10% stun = 50 through + 5 stun
total = 50/toughness + 5 stun.

So in case above low stat characters should double up even with stun values, but high stats may be not especially if the stun does bypass their stats.

Now go with something like heart protector

2layer
100 damage 50% coverage layer 1 50% stop 0 stun = 50 through + 0 stun
50 damage 100% coverage layer 2 50% stop 10% stun = 25 through + 2.5 stun
total = 25/toughness + 2.5stun

but due to the coverage one would expect every other blow (given a big enough sample) to be as above for 1 layer. So additional bonus to high stats but maybe not so good for low stats characters.

Therefore looking at low coverage high stats for 1st layer and high coverage low stun 2nd layers would seem optimal for those with a positive toughness modifier (50+ i believe).

I'm not sure about heavy armour because the .87 combat modifier is pretty hefty all other things being equal (samurai, holynation and merc plate). Where as things like sandals provide a positive combat modifier and get checked after leg armour in order so are beneficial for 1st strike.

If stealth isn't an issue then combos like sneaky cargo pants + sandals, Assassin rags or Heart protector over (dark?) leather turtle or blackened chain depending etc. (My current Ma is also heavy stealth so avoids any -ve stealth modifiers)

I also favour grade 3 fog mask or what ever its called ( found mine on unique noble) or tanglemust if one is fighting in dust prone areas given the considerable penalty to combat. But weather considerations is really a different consideration akin to common damage type of most regular enemies of any given area.

[yippeekiay]

Try & get the black plate jacket instead of white, if that's your preference. The black is better, all my other guys wear it. I was going to kit out my MA in the same gear but wanted her to be different, thus the sleeveless dustcoat & wristband ;o)

[Boogie Zero]

Originally posted by SnugSnug:

I Agree. In the end you want to balance things out. Generaly I'd look into low stun armor even if they have only 20% damage reduction. When I saw 20% reduction before I used to dismiss that piece as useless. That doesn't have to be always true as shown in examples. High stun becomes problematic on top layers as damage from it ignores all folowing layers. Lower stun is usually on armor with lover coverage (except heavy armor). Then you want to balance coverage so you wouldn't end up with unprotected chest for example. You will notice if you go down everytime because of broken ribs :)

Originally posted by yippeekiay:

I have some black plate jackets they are not masterwork quality so I used this white instead. I get you. I don't like using same setup for every member either. I'm willing to have a bit worse equip just for the sake of the looks xD


One more thing regarding training MA and dodge. When you train other things you gain bonus for fighting with stronger oponents. What stat decides that the oponent is stronger for MA or dodge. If you strip enemy of weapons he usualy have 10 MA or something like that. Does that mean I'll get lower xp for MA even though with weapon he has 60 attack, strength, ...? I noticed that you get xp for dodge even just for dodging attack so does the same thing apply? His dodge is lower than mine so I get penalized xp for it?

Originally posted by zxzSCARFACEzxz:

What's the best way to train for MA?

I punched leviathan to death while other guy was blocking. It's not a good way to start it's a bit risky xD I don't feel like going there for a while. I started to use mods for increased dificulty and it was way to risky to go there even before. (I've almost ended up as dinner for canibals) :)

[Boron]

Originally posted by zxzSCARFACEzxz:

What's the best way to train for MA?

Dodge is one of the easier stats to train to the highest levels. Load up on gear that inflicts a penalty to it (heavy backpacks, tin helmets, etc.), and go and fight fogmen or hungry bandits with a small backup team. Have your character Block, and that's it. If you do it right, you'll be blocking with a total dodge of <0, which will cause your dodge skill to soar, and the meagre hits will boost your strength and toughness quite nicely. I have an older save with a martial artist who has 95 dodge or so.

You won't train your offensive skills doing this, but you'll get your dodge high enough that you can seek out tough fights.

I have to admit, though, that I haven't tried this method since the whole ranged/dismemberment patches came through on experimental.

[SnugSnug]

Originally posted by Boogie Zero:

One more thing regarding training MA and dodge. When you train other things you gain bonus for fighting with stronger oponents. What stat decides that the oponent is stronger for MA or dodge. If you strip enemy of weapons he usualy have 10 MA or something like that. Does that mean I'll get lower xp for MA even though with weapon he has 60 attack, strength, ...? I noticed that you get xp for dodge even just for dodging attack so does the same thing apply? His dodge is lower than mine so I get penalized xp for it?

Stats are directly opposed for puposes of determining opponent value and %buff/penalty to xp.

melee / ranged / ma VZ block / dodge
sneak vz perception
theif vz perception + distance

In other words your comparing his MA to your dodge and your Ma to his dodge with both getting independent %modifier to xp. So as stated in post above if one gimps their dodge down to 0 it will train well even against low level attackers like hungry bandits etc, but your MA won't benefit as it excedes their block values by to much unless also gimped.

only the attack skill stat is taken into account not the additional stats like str/dex or even the weapon skills katana/blunt etc. However, as noted one can use the derived stats to penalise or buff the base stat into the range of the opposition for purposes of training. I can't remember the exact figures but i think one needs to be ~10 lower than the opponents value for a buff to xp and within 5 for no penalties. (could be wrong on these figures, can't remember the thread i saw them in to check.)