So how does armor work?

[Soulfire328]

So how exactly does armor work? Once your stats such as str are high enough is there any reason not to have everyone wear heavy armor? Once I get my assassin sneak skill high enough to compensate for the draw backs to stealth from larger armor does it matter? I feel like I am missing something.

[Carl Brutananadilewski]

There's a lot to explain about armor in kenshi to a newcomer, but I'll try to keep it brief. Armor reduces a percent of incoming damage that your character doesn't block. That percentage is generally pretty low unless you're wearing high quality armor.

The main reason not to wear heavy armor is twofold: First, all heavy armors come with a penalty to dexterity, which reduces cut damage, attack speed, and block speed. Second, blocking is a better way of preventing damage to your characters because if successful it stops 100% of incoming damage and has no such penalties. It just requires training your melee defense stat and not being so outnumbered that your character can't block all the incoming strikes in time.

That's why I only use heavy armor for training purposes, to make fights last longer so that my characters gain more experience. Then when they're in a fight where winning matters more than gaining experience, I can put them in dustcoats.

It's still a question of how you want to play though. If you want to wander the world and train up by occasionally losing fights (that hopefully don't result in being enslaved or eaten or whatever), heavy armor is probably the overall better choice. If you want to train in a safe environment and then go engage in fights that aren't safe to lose though, I think it's better to switch to light armor that trades penalties for bonuses. Attack and block speed are very important, and you can also get melee defense buffs from light armor.

As for your questions about stealth, heavy armor gives massive, crippling penalties. If your character has ~90 stealth they can run at full speed virtually undetected, which is very powerful. Any kind of heavy armor, even boots, usually has at least a 50% penalty to stealth so your characters will move much slower and be seen much more easily. So if your goal is to be stealthy just stick with light armor.

[Fyra'Nok]

Reminds me I'm supposed to test if I can stack stealth increasing gear today and play around in tengu's vault essentially invisible.

I can't decide upon gear as well. As I feel like using assasin's rag's and sandals on all characters. To me it's either superlight or superheavy. Superheavy for unknown reasons. Won't be long before I storm a leviathan with 20-30 peeps in assasins rags to see how it turn out. Half squad dead is major success as long as limbs are intact. However I probably want to play a while with everyone as MA first to get that dodge up.

Also trying to find a reason why my archers wouldnt want to use a -20 perception helmet once they can make up for the loss. 66+20=86.

The only general penalty besides item stats from heavy armor is the weight if you don't have the strenght to use it without getting encumbered. Easy to overcome, unless sporting the full heaviest + heavy weapons. Something one wouldn't want, a combo of light and heavy that doesn't have penalties is the way to go it seem.

Though one thing is shedding the mercenary leather for something more positive, another is gutting yourself so hard that your essentially defenseless gearwise and rely on stats. Well, this you do in full heavy armor also ;p

[Soulfire328]

Ok cool thanks. I do know about other specifics in armor such as how much of the limbs it covers helps stop the losing of limbs and that kind of thing. Many thanks. I had recently given my character some heavyer armor because of how old what he was wearing was. But I suppose now knowing this that isnt the best idea for a katana user.

[Gopblin]

Basically you either want high-tier heaviest armor, or light stuff that gives stat boosts such as assassin rags. Drops from regular enemies (such as paladin cuirasses and all that) are generally worse than using no armor at all, especially for a starting char.

At high tier, heavy armor is very much worth it for combat, especially if there are enemy archers present (in vanilla at 100% damage, archers kinda suck, but with higher damage multiplier or with "more archers" mods, they can be your primary problem). Kenshi is by no means a boring balanced game, and it's entirely possible to make a completely OP character without heavy armor (heck, you can make an archer than will outrun all opposition and peck them to death). But if you don't rely on kiting, masterwork heavy armor on frontliners is better than light gear with bonuses.

So the most "optimal" combat outfit is probably Samurai armor, Crab helmet, Leather Turtleneck, Cargopants (Sneaky Chain), and Sandals, all Masterwork level. The char will deal like 15% less damage and take like 70% less damage in return, and should be able to run at the same speed as naked char, although will have lower sneak.

That said, this isn't the most optimum "game" outfit, because as I said there are plenty of ways to be OP without entering a head-on slugging match. High Sneak and Assasination are enough to KO the vast majority of enemies, even bosses, without ever having to actually fight them. Micro can be used to dodge out of the way of enemy attacks and take 0 damage that way. Etc.

PS. this thread:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/discussions/0/1742227898993557583/?tscn=1554179133

PPS. Also this link explaining why DEX debuffs are bad and Samurai armor best armor:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/discussions/0/1768133742959644175/?tscn=1554092296#c1768134097432636322

And this:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/discussions/0/1846946102844421631/?tscn=1553123061

[angrytrex]

I'm skeptical about the love for Dexterity. I notice that Dex goes down way faster in combat from injuries than str, and my char with 100 in each will usually finish a tough battle at like 80 str and 60 dex from injuries. I feel like the dex is getting wasted because it drops so quickly, and only stays at it's peak effectiveness for a short time compared to str which stays a lot more constant. More dex is always better of course, but I'm thinking of going back to str weapons if i ever get enough motivation to craft another 30 of them again.

Samurai armor doesn't have very good environmental protection, so you can't really use it in the acid rain or fire areas for very long. There's not a ton of these areas, but if you want to explore them in detail you'll have to bring tents or some sort of alternate gear.

I do agree strongly though with the heavy vs light debate where heavy is better if it's of top notch quality.

[Hobo Misanthropus]

Dexterity is overrated unless your weapon has over 75% of its damage modifier on cut.

Heavy Armor is usually worthless unless you can get specialist or masterwork. Some rare exceptions for high grade exist. high grade Mercenary Plate and Samurai armor can be useful early game.

White Plate Jackets should form the bulk of your armor, they have low penalties, and perfect coverage of the Stomach and Chest. Combine with a solid 70% cut resistance efficacy.

Crab Armor should go on anyone using a Fragment Axe or Mercenary club. I favor Unholy for my cleaver users. Limbs are not nearly as important to keep protected, but I'm sure the difference is marginal, and no battle will ever hinge on your choice between Crab and Unholy, as they're both going to stop lucky vital strikes that might bring one of your guys down quickly.

Samurai armor is a respectable, but suboptimal choice because of the 15% coverage gap on the stomach. However, Samurai Legplates are exceptional, easily the best leg armor offering a 50% coverage of the stomach which will stack on any exiting armor. With double masterwork Crab/Unholy+any underarmor, it's a bit unnecessary. But, for example, one of my favorite combinations is Assassin's Rags and Samurai Legplates. You still come out with more attack speed, and solid stomach coverage. Great for Berserker style builds. (Skeleton Berserkers, using SamLegplates and Assassin Rags + Falling Suns can cut through hordes in seconds.)


Armor is typically not so much about protecting your character in a solo scenario, but to protect against collateral damage. You can have perfect defense, but unless you are the one being attacked the enemy can still hit you.

[Gopblin]

Originally posted by angrytrex:

I'm skeptical about the love for Dexterity. I notice that Dex goes down way faster in combat from injuries than str, and my char with 100 in each will usually finish a tough battle at like 80 str and 60 dex from injuries. I feel like the dex is getting wasted because it drops so quickly, and only stays at it's peak effectiveness for a short time compared to str which stays a lot more constant. More dex is always better of course, but I'm thinking of going back to str weapons if i ever get enough motivation to craft another 30 of them again.

Samurai armor doesn't have very good environmental protection, so you can't really use it in the acid rain or fire areas for very long. There's not a ton of these areas, but if you want to explore them in detail you'll have to bring tents or some sort of alternate gear.

I do agree strongly though with the heavy vs light debate where heavy is better if it's of top notch quality.

DEX severely affects STR weapon performance according to my testing (second link above). That said, I think STR weapon choices are generally better, especially late game. So one should probably use a STR weapon with heavy armor, but try to keep DEX high.

As for environment, Crab Helmet is already best helmet ingame and gives 60% to three environment resists. Crab armor gives additional 50%. But considering that armor can be equipped/unequipped at will, and environmental damage is not a big problem for top level chars, I often don't wear Crab armor and instead keep environment protecting gear in inventory.

https://kenshi.fandom.com/wiki/Crab_Helmet

[Carl Brutananadilewski]

Originally posted by Hobo Misanthropus:

Falling Suns can cut through hordes in seconds.)

Actually come to think of it this is almost the entire reason I use dustcoats. Our enemies melt before us, so I'm really not worried about the damage we take.

They have so much going for them that I'm just not willing to carry the extra weight of samurai around the world with me, even at masterwork.

There's dodge, environmental protection, leg coverage (although that's totally redundant if you're using samurai legs), full torso coverage, +5 defense (which is a 20% damage reduction if your enemy's attack matches your defense), and you attack faster at the start of the battle, meaning your enemies fall more quickly.

[Krono]

What's the "cut resistance efficiency" thing mean?

[Carl Brutananadilewski]

Originally posted by Krono:

What's the "cut resistance efficiency" thing mean?

The efficiency is the amount of "negated" cut damage that is fully and truly negated. The rest of the "negated" damage turns into blunt (and ignores your underclothes because kenshi).

So if you have 50% cut protect at 50% efficiency, you'll stop 25% of incoming cut damage, 25% will turn to blunt, and 50% will stay as cut and proceed to the next layer of armor.

[Fyra'Nok]

Problem though it's no fun to have entire squads in exact same gear/looks. Is there at least a mod or a way to hide helmet?

[Krono]

Originally posted by Carl Brutananadilewski:

The efficiency is the amount of "negated" cut damage that is fully and truly negated. The rest of the "negated" damage turns into blunt (and ignores your underclothes because kenshi).

So if you have 50% cut protect at 50% efficiency, you'll stop 25% of incoming cut damage, 25% will turn to blunt, and 50% will stay as cut and proceed to the next layer of armor.

Cool, thanks

[Gopblin]

Originally posted by Hobo Misanthropus:

Dexterity is overrated unless your weapon has over 75% of its damage modifier on cut.

I'll copypaste my old post here to explain why I think DEX is important.
Short version: it affects your attack speed and hit chance a ton, even with an STR weapon. Wearing DEX-reducing heavy armor while wielding STR weapon probably reduces your damage output by 30 to 50 percent depending on the specifics. This, in turn, might also significantly increase damage taken (because the enemies will take ~twice longer to kill, they will make twice more attacks on you, not to mention block speed debuff due to DEX and lower combat movement speed).

==old quote==
Did some testing with a Training Katana (3? kg) and a Training Plank (10kg) from a mod. Those were given to a prisoner (stats in 40s, dex and atk leveled to ~80 before testing) attacking a character set to Block.

Prisoner was tested either slapped in most dex-reducing armor imaginable (Crab Armor + Chainmail + Punishment sphere from Cannibals Expanded mod, total reduction of dex around 70%), or in dex-increasing gear (Assassin Dustcoat from mod, +20% dex).

Tested how long it took prisoner to make 60 attack swings (at normal game speed) with either training plank or training katana.

Results:

1) Katana and plank were surprisingly similar in speed. It appears the main limitation on heavy weapons is their weight, not the speed with which they can be swung once requirements are met. It took roughly 55 seconds to make 60 swings with katana and 61 seconds to make 60 swings with the plank at 96 DEX, give or take a few seconds for repositioning.

2) Both katana and plank were definitely affected by Dex score. The idea that the heavy weapon attack speed is determined by STR only can be considered debunked.

Dex tooltip showed attack speed going from 0.82 at 25 DEX in heaviest armor (this appears to be minimum speed), to 1.2 attack speed in dex-increasing gear (96 dex, this appears to be the max).

However, it did not take 50% longer to make 60 attacks at 25 dex. Rather, it only took around 1:07 with katana and 1:20 with the plank, i.e. about 30% longer. This appears to be because Attack Speed only affects attack animation speed, while the "reset" time between animations remains constant.

3) Prisoner appeared to land hits a lot more often with high DEX, duh. I'm a little unclear on this whole point - on one hand, hitting is ostensibly about ATT vs DEF check, with ATT tooltip providing base hit chance, but on the other hand, it seems that properly presented block never fails, i.e. it's only about animations. In this case, attack animation speed is even more important.

Overall conclusion: Dex seems to be quite important for all weapons classes. My love for Crab armor is probably misplaced since it debuffs Dex by 50%, and wearing chainmail under it is definitely a mistake too. The best choice seems to be Samurai armor despite only 85% stomach coverage and 15% straight damage debuff, or the Cannibal heavy plate from Cannibals Expanded mod since it only debuffs Dex by 15% and gives full coverage. Dixi."
=====

Originally posted by Hobo Misanthropus:

Heavy Armor is usually worthless unless you can get specialist or masterwork. Some rare exceptions for high grade exist. high grade Mercenary Plate and Samurai armor can be useful early game.

Agreed

Originally posted by Hobo Misanthropus:

White Plate Jackets should form the bulk of your armor, they have low penalties, and perfect coverage of the Stomach and Chest. Combine with a solid 70% cut resistance efficacy.

Get 100 cut damage to stomach wearing WP over leather turtleneck: 42 unblocked reduced to about 35 by turtleneck + 17 passthrough blunt = 52 damage.

Get 100 cut damage to stomach wearing samurai armor over leather turtleneck:
IF hits 85% coverage = 19 unblocked reduced to about 16 by turtleneck + 8 passthrough blunt = 24 damage.
IF hits 15% gap = 100 damage.
Average damage per hit = 35 damage.

Conclusion: Samurai armor blocks roughly 50% more cut damage (and roughly 70% more Blunt damage) at the cost of -8 MAtk and 0.85 damage multiplier, but doesn't have 5% DEX debuff like WP does. I'd say it's better, especially for high-stat characters (MAtk and damage debuffs cease to matter because you hit and oneshot everything anyway).

Crab Armor should go on anyone using a Fragment Axe or Mercenary club. I favor Unholy for my cleaver users. Limbs are not nearly as important to keep protected, but I'm sure the difference is marginal, and no battle will ever hinge on your choice between Crab and Unholy, as they're both going to stop lucky vital strikes that might bring one of your guys down quickly.

See above about DEX. Unholy is abysmal overall and probably worse than WP for any sort of serious protracted combat (run the calculations above for the entire body and you'll see why, 25% coverage on arms is a joke). IMO it's only good if you are much stronger than whatever you're fighting, and either play with low damage and dismemberment, or keep a stack of spare robotic arms in your backpack.

Crab is good for tanking but once again, see above about DEX.

However, Samurai Legplates are exceptional, easily the best leg armor offering a 50% coverage of the stomach which will stack on any exiting armor.

Agreed, my bad for forgetting them. I don't like them because they make traveling less efficient with the Athletics debuff, but for serious combat, they're great.

Armor is typically not so much about protecting your character in a solo scenario, but to protect against collateral damage. You can have perfect defense, but unless you are the one being attacked the enemy can still hit you.

Great point once again, forgot to mention that myself. Yeah blocking is good, but it doesn't prevent AoE, so gotta have armor for mass fights.

[angrytrex]

the only issue i take with your tests is that you're looking at speed in more of a lab setting than what is actually happening in a fight.

Generally, in an actual battle, 1 swing from an edge 1 or 2 Fragment axe from a 100+ str character can wipe out many enemies or disable their ability to fight. When you start hitting in the 150-300 damage range, you tend to only need one or two hits. Get an army of about 10-20 guys all doing this and the attack speed starts to matter less and less because the massive AOE kills everything within just a few seconds.

This, and not having to re-equip everybody when I want to venture into bad weather, is why I prefer crab, dexterity penalty and all. I just don't see the need to min max it when everything dies instantly already.

[Gopblin]

Originally posted by angrytrex:

the only issue i take with your tests is that you're looking at speed in more of a lab setting than what is actually happening in a fight.

Generally, in an actual battle, 1 swing from an edge 1 or 2 Fragment axe from a 100+ str character can wipe out many enemies or disable their ability to fight. When you start hitting in the 150-300 damage range, you tend to only need one or two hits. Get an army of about 10-20 guys all doing this and the attack speed starts to matter less and less because the massive AOE kills everything within just a few seconds.

This, and not having to re-equip everybody when I want to venture into bad weather, is why I prefer crab, dexterity penalty and all. I just don't see the need to min max it when everything dies instantly already.

Agreed, we all know that it's fairly easy to get stupid OP in Kenshi and many endgame builds will wipe the floor with pretty much any enemy group. I was speaking purely from a theoretical min-maxing perspective. Like, if Samurai armor guys fought Crab armor guys they'd probably win... very marginally. But when it comes to endgame groups wiping the floor with NPCs, which heavy armor to use matters little.