Hacker vs Heavy weapons?

[Wehr Wulf]

Helloooo :)

Im curious what the difference is here? Im sure it can all be dependent on your enemies and your play style yadda yadda, but I mean overall....are these two classes really that different?


I am looking at cleavers and paladins crosses, the blunt/cut damage tends to be even ish, and they offer a 30% armor bonus....

When I look at falling suns or planks, the blunt/cut ratio seems similar, but the damage tends to be higher, the weapon weighs more, and no bonus.

So what is the benefit or reason youd pick one over the other?
does the heavy weapons higher damage compensate for the lack of armor penetration bonus?

Why wouldnt I just give all ten of my guys a falling sun?
Why would I give a few planks, a few cleavers? And where and when do you wanna use the fragmented axe? ? ?

All my characters have their strength, dex, attack, toughness in the high 50s- 70.

[Hans]

It's probably on reddit, but people have performed calculations and the Falling Sun is essentially the best weapon in the game, not to mention it gets the +50% damage bonus against a few enemy types. Additionally, heavy weapons have the longest attack range and do the most area of effect damage and hit more targets with every swing, especially in comparison with the hackers. An edge 3 falling sun weapon only weighs 31 kg, meaning you only need 62 strength for max weapon swing speed.

Paladin crosses are only better than Fallen Suns in the south eastern portion of the map in the ashlands, and only marginally. If you're looking to have a small party of bad asses just give them all Falling Suns and you'll probably wreck everything. The only reason to give anyone a fragment axe would be to try and raise their strength since it does so much blunt damage.

[Zee_]

Heavy weapons tend to have a longer reach. When using a heavy weapon you want to make sure your strength is double the weapon's weight to avoid attack speed and block/parry speed penalties.

Cleavers are the weapon of choice for dealing with heavily armored skeletons, where their armor penetration and damage bonuses really shine, against anything else a heavy weapon will match or surpass their damage output.

As for why you should use a variety of weapons vs a small handfull of the most power weapons (falling sun is the most powerful overall)... personal preference. I like arming my characters with weapons that I feel fit their personality, plus I enjoy seeing a bit of diversity on the battlefield. But if all you want is max damage then its not a bad idea to equip everyone with falling suns.

The time to use a frag axe when you have a character that you just want to focus on strength, if you have them wearing heavy armor that has alot of dex penalties.

Blunt damage = strength based
Cut damage = dex based

A high strength and dex character wearing light or medium armor (to avoid dex penalties) armed with a falling sun is arguably the most damaging character in the game (martial arts is close, sometimes higher depending on the opponent and if your characters spam the jumping knee alot).

[Red Bat]

Heavy weapons take a big hit to damage when your character receives stomach damage though, so they often aren't as efficient as they look. You also need a very high strength in order to get that hypothetically higher damage rate. This is noticeable if you get Ruka early on, let her keep her default weapon, and notice she is doing significantly less in fights than your characters armed with junk quality katanas and blunt weapons.

The reason you'd use a plank or a fragment axe over a falling sun is normally that falling suns are by a decent margin, the rarest weapon in the game. Once that stops being a problem, the fragment axe is a good choice for strength training as it's obscenely heavy. The plank tends to fall by the wayside as a heavy weapon, kind of like how the staff gets a bit obsolete later on.

[p30pl3h4t3m3]

you train with hackers before train with plank to use fragment axe/falling sun @ the end with small hacker as side weapon.

that way you train enough str & dex and have 2 weapons (heavy outdoor, hacker indoor). malus is always good so your skills level faster, while a bonus is bad for "training".

[wordwaster]

Use whatever weapons you like. I prefer a mix so that all of my characters have a unique feel. Others prefer a uniform look.

The heavy weapons do more damage than the hackers, if you have the strength and dexterity to use them properly. If you’re goal is to end battles quickly, that is the way to go.

Just be sure that you have the strength to use them. The meitou heavy weapons are HEAVY weapons. 70str without a masterwork lifter arm (or two) isn’t going to be optimal.

[Morkonan]

Originally posted by Xepheon <3:

...Why wouldnt I just give all ten of my guys a falling sun?

Because that would be stupid. :)

Oh, you want to know why? OK...

What happens when your Falling Sun guy is hit really hard and starts taking some damage? Well... their Strength goes down. And, what happens when their Strength goes down below the minimum needed to effectively wield a top-of-the-line Falling Sun? And... there goes a bunch of DPS out the window.

Arming everyone with Falling Suns is "Stoopid" unless they all have bionics and top-tier everything. Even so...

What happens as combat progresses? Well, that damage builds up, right? And, more characters are going to start incurring Strength penalties from injuries. And, all that time, what is the Paladin's Cross wielder doing? They're still doing 100%+ damage even when they're injured... So, for the whole combat? The Paladin's Cross remains 100%+ effective and the Falling Sun only remains that way for a comparably short time, then drops down to 50% effectiveness when the wielder starts accumulating injuries.

Keep in mind, though, that this is for pure vanilla without exploits or outrageous Strength mods, etc.. And, it's also meant for realistic armor, dodge, etc.

In short - Falling Suns are great, but they are for very specialized Top-Tire Tanks/DPS only.

Why would I give a few planks, a few cleavers? And where and when do you wanna use the fragmented axe? ? ?

IMO, while all weapons in Kenshi certainly have their uses and their advantages, the Plank and Fragment Axe suffer from similar Strength reduction problems as the Falling Sun. They're heavy... and that means that the wielder is either a DPS class that can dodge and there's some heavy Taunting going on from a front-line Tank or... those heavy weapons will start doing less damage as things progress.

That doesn't mean they're bad or anything, it just means that people need to really pay attention to a weapon's stats beyond "DPS." I like those weapons, but only for suitable characters.

IMO, equipping lots of Paladin's Crosses will net you more damage done over the course of the game than anything else. BUT, at end-game, with all end-game gear and stats? Sure, go for those heavy hitters if you want. Just don't do that before your characters are ready.

All my characters have their strength, dex, attack, toughness in the high 50s- 70.

Your mileage may vary and you're very late in the game to be asking such questions.... Mods? Expoits? By this time you should already know the answers. :)

Hackers > Most weapon setups for most melee combat characters. Paladin's Cross is one of the best of those at just general mayhem and damage, all around. Interesting note: Some hackers can be equipped in the Secondary slot and it's not a bad idea to do that to avoid the Indoors Penalty when out exploring ruins for loot while still accessing some of the bonuses of Hackers.

Heavy Weapons - For Specialist DPS that have the stats and gear and, importantly, the Role to keep that DPS up throughout the engagement. Falling Sun is the best of these.

Katanas - There is nothing wrong with any of these. They should, however, be relegated to Ranged users as their Secondary weapon. But, having a few still using Katanas as a primary can be a good thing, especially when one is still engaging lots of bandit types. They're fast, too, which means lots of stun/attack effects against enemies. Of these, I like the regular Katanas and Toppers for primary Katana users.

Polearms - Awesome, all around. Great weapons. Every group should have a couple Polearm wielders in it, if not five... They're basically all decent to good, so choose based on the situation/encounters. (Not a fan of the Staff, but some swear by it for certain situations.)

Sabres - Sabres are your ultimate "Specialist Weapon." They all have their focus and that's what they are for and they come with +Defense in case you want to build a Defensive Tank/Taunter. I like the Foreign Sabre for general Taunt-Tank stuff and Desert Sabre or others for Specialist DPS against Spiders,etc. Stack for the enemy type or use Foreign Sabres for Defensive Taunt Tank. (Note: Later, a Taunt Tank's stats might not need that extra Defense. It helps a bit early in the game, though.)

[adaxe1]

Actually when hit heavy armored non-robot enemies, UC samurais for example, a paladin's cross only deals 2 or 3 fewer damage than a fallen sun.

[bunny de fluff]

Sabre and Blunt weapon class are two of the worst weapon class even though my Beep is a spike club specialist. They have the shortest reach. Fight with them more and you will know how useless they are when most of their swings don't touch anyone. They can't even hit a stunned enemy sometimes.

[wordwaster]

Originally posted by bunny de fluff:

Sabre and Blunt weapon class are two of the worst weapon class even though my Beep is a spike club specialist. They have the shortest reach. Fight with them more and you will know how useless they are when most of their swings don't touch anyone. They can't even hit a stunned enemy sometimes.

they are not at all useless. they are just not useful for killing.

blunt is for nonlethal take downs (bounty hunting).

heavy armor + jitte or foreign saber + taunt = a good tank. some people discount the +8 defense as insignificant; but even at lvl 80 defense, that is still a 10% bonus to defense.

[Red Bat]

Originally posted by bunny de fluff:

Sabre and Blunt weapon class are two of the worst weapon class even though my Beep is a spike club specialist. They have the shortest reach. Fight with them more and you will know how useless they are when most of their swings don't touch anyone. They can't even hit a stunned enemy sometimes.

Sabre's are pretty good for tanks or countering very specific enemies. Even as general purpose weapons they are at worst, slightly worse than comparable katana's.

Blunt is a bit iffy, but the few Meitou blunt weapons are easy to get, and they at least have 2 weapons in the category that stack up to other weapons. Oh and they are 1 handed and able to be used as secondary weapons. They also aren't as resisted by robot enemies as other weapons, and robots make up a good chunk of the game's worst threats.

[bunny de fluff]

The problem with these two weapon classes is that, their attack animation starts playing before the weapon user reached the correct position to connect their weapon to the hit box of the enemy. This makes them the only weapons that can miss their attacks without the enemy blocking or dodging at all.