Complex prisons not intended??? Please discuss with me!

[Baal Netbeck]

I do like how the game looks, feels and works in the beginning of a small prison...it's lovely! (prepare for a long rant with a lot of misspelling)

If you miss/loose the central point of my rant.....Why am I forced to play "Prison Babysitter" instead of "Greatest Prison Architect"?

When starting on my first prison I did run into a lot of problems, snitches getting killed, gangs taking over the prison...programs not successful, etc.

I sold my prison and started a second one with best intentions...three seperate sections, shared, super max and protective....three kitchen/canteens....three yards etc.....
I was planning on finding snitches->protective custody and marking gang members as super max.....min med and max sec should be shared....and several control points with metal detectors + dogs. to find every contraband....then running a lot of programs to get a low reoffending rate...

This is what happened:
-Some snitched don't go to their yard(it is near by and marked for them)...they go to the shared yard and get killed --> dividing the shared yard in three sections(min med max) to force them out.
-in their free time snitches chill in the shared canteen -> snitched die ->dividing shared canteen.
-having showers in cells makes all shared prisoners run into one cell and using that one shower after eating -> changing regime.
-Gang leader misbehaves...then the whole prison is going crasy as long as he is in solitary->still no cure other then killing him.
-extremely violate gang guys stay forever because they murder others->get more years->murder more and can't die of old....over time gang section is getting bigger and bigger filled with those->no cure other then killing them.
-snitches use other shared rooms to get killed->changing regime so they don't have free time together->snitches get killed while traveling->building a whole new snitch area on the other side of the road with a big "staff only area" in between as a barrier->snitches still want to go on the other side because any shared room is better then their own?!?->guards escording them through the staff only area too their death->me crying.
-only a few snitches left makes the cooks abandon their kitchen->waste, dirty trays, hundreds of trays, etc..all pilled up->getting more cooks...sending them manually to this kitchen...nothing works they go in...turn around and leave->having the other kitchen deliver food to the snitches canteen->long walking distance->sometimes hungry snitches.

Events:nice touch....at first.
-managing fire, fence down, pipe broken...getting old quickly and no problem
-remove XY from room XY....annoying as hell.
-food experiment....not nice ;).
-keep 10 special guys alive->marking them as protective doesn't work->they go to the snich area and then guards take them back in the shared cells->solitary until event is over
-find the x guys with a green face and isolate the infection.....nice challenge at first.....a pain in the ♥♥♥ when having over 300 prisoners!!!!

So for my third prison I sold the second one...disabled events and tried to make it perfect:

This is my prison so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idtXiwZL6z0
It is not pretty but it works as long as you manually mark gang members as super max and trigger shakedown every few days....but there are some unsolvable and unnecessary problems:
-finding snitches in time is a fulltime job....does the architect/warden of a 300+ prison need to check his prisoners constantly, recruit new informants and collect the informations manually every day???->I found the "snitch sorter" mod that takes that duty away.
-long walking distances ruin a lot of things->movement mod.
-one Kitchen...5 canteens...cooks bring way too much food into the two canteens nearby....and only starting to get food into the other ones when prisoners are already waiting there....then not bringing enough->only two serving tables per canteen so they don't put too much food in the wrong canteens + 2 hrs of eating time....most of the time cooks can feed 99%.
-Drug treatment is useless....I need to let them into a infirmary for the program and they leave it with a new needle that can't be detected if you don't search them manually every day after the programm->detectable drugs mod.
-Still no other way then killing gang leader and violate guys.
-tunnels over tunnels->shakedowns are your friend but with 4600 places to search, you need a ton of guards to get it done in one night.
-silly problem!....why having only one Foreman and then letting him do the workshop programs??? I can have multiple prychologists to run multiple behavioural therapys in my 5 sections but with one foreman and 8 hrs of worktime I can only fit 4 workshop programs into the scheduler(I did go for "Workshop safety" on min med and max sec and one "carpentry apprenticeship" on med sec).....Why is the game forcing me to get 5 seperate sections in the first place and then denying me to get 5 canteens and 5 workshops to run properly?


This game has the potential to plan, build and run big and complex prisons but once I got to that point, I felt limited by stupid limitations and mechanics not transfering over to bigger prisons running over longer times....and without the mod, being forced to babysit snitches......What do you think?

[Jet City Gambler]

Lots of people (including me) have managed to run large complex prisons. If you play without events, it should be ridiculously easy. I haven't watched your video, but just from your rant I would say

Your protective custody and supermax are obviously not secured by an airlock
Recruiting lots of CIs is a breeze, often I have dozens more than I need
Identifying snitches and ex-cops is merely a matter of running a CI to your security office every morning
One kitchen with five canteens seems ridiculous, but maybe it can work
Drug treatment and rehab actually work quite well
You rarely need more than one foreman, because of the interest in the programs
Infections are at worst a mild annoyance
If you're counting on shakedowns to find tunnels you're not doing it right

[Trixi]

Originally posted by Baal Netbeck:

I do like how the game looks, feels and works in the beginning of a small prison...it's lovely! (prepare for a long rant with a lot of misspelling)

If you miss/loose the central point of my rant.....Why am I forced to play "Prison Babysitter" instead of "Greatest Prison Architect"?

When starting on my first prison I did run into a lot of problems, snitches getting killed, gangs taking over the prison...programs not successful, etc.

I sold my prison and started a second one with best intentions...three seperate sections, shared, super max and protective....three kitchen/canteens....three yards etc.....
I was planning on finding snitches->protective custody and marking gang members as super max.....min med and max sec should be shared....and several control points with metal detectors + dogs. to find every contraband....then running a lot of programs to get a low reoffending rate...

This is what happened:
-Some snitched don't go to their yard(it is near by and marked for them)...they go to the shared yard and get killed --> dividing the shared yard in three sections(min med max) to force them out.
-in their free time snitches chill in the shared canteen -> snitched die ->dividing shared canteen.
-having showers in cells makes all shared prisoners run into one cell and using that one shower after eating -> changing regime.
-Gang leader misbehaves...then the whole prison is going crasy as long as he is in solitary->still no cure other then killing him.
-extremely violate gang guys stay forever because they murder others->get more years->murder more and can't die of old....over time gang section is getting bigger and bigger filled with those->no cure other then killing them.
-snitches use other shared rooms to get killed->changing regime so they don't have free time together->snitches get killed while traveling->building a whole new snitch area on the other side of the road with a big "staff only area" in between as a barrier->snitches still want to go on the other side because any shared room is better then their own?!?->guards escording them through the staff only area too their death->me crying.
-only a few snitches left makes the cooks abandon their kitchen->waste, dirty trays, hundreds of trays, etc..all pilled up->getting more cooks...sending them manually to this kitchen...nothing works they go in...turn around and leave->having the other kitchen deliver food to the snitches canteen->long walking distance->sometimes hungry snitches.

Events:nice touch....at first.
-managing fire, fence down, pipe broken...getting old quickly and no problem
-remove XY from room XY....annoying as hell.
-food experiment....not nice ;).
-keep 10 special guys alive->marking them as protective doesn't work->they go to the snich area and then guards take them back in the shared cells->solitary until event is over
-find the x guys with a green face and isolate the infection.....nice challenge at first.....a pain in the ♥♥♥ when having over 300 prisoners!!!!

So for my third prison I sold the second one...disabled events and tried to make it perfect:

This is my prison so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idtXiwZL6z0
It is not pretty but it works as long as you manually mark gang members as super max and trigger shakedown every few days....but there are some unsolvable and unnecessary problems:
-finding snitches in time is a fulltime job....does the architect/warden of a 300+ prison need to check his prisoners constantly, recruit new informants and collect the informations manually every day???->I found the "snitch sorter" mod that takes that duty away.
-long walking distances ruin a lot of things->movement mod.
-one Kitchen...5 canteens...cooks bring way too much food into the two canteens nearby....and only starting to get food into the other ones when prisoners are already waiting there....then not bringing enough->only two serving tables per canteen so they don't put too much food in the wrong canteens + 2 hrs of eating time....most of the time cooks can feed 99%.
-Drug treatment is useless....I need to let them into a infirmary for the program and they leave it with a new needle that can't be detected if you don't search them manually every day after the programm->detectable drugs mod.
-Still no other way then killing gang leader and violate guys.
-tunnels over tunnels->shakedowns are your friend but with 4600 places to search, you need a ton of guards to get it done in one night.
-silly problem!....why having only one Foreman and then letting him do the workshop programs??? I can have multiple prychologists to run multiple behavioural therapys in my 5 sections but with one foreman and 8 hrs of worktime I can only fit 4 workshop programs into the scheduler(I did go for "Workshop safety" on min med and max sec and one "carpentry apprenticeship" on med sec).....Why is the game forcing me to get 5 seperate sections in the first place and then denying me to get 5 canteens and 5 workshops to run properly?


This game has the potential to plan, build and run big and complex prisons but once I got to that point, I felt limited by stupid limitations and mechanics not transfering over to bigger prisons running over longer times....and without the mod, being forced to babysit snitches......What do you think?

Shared area: shared means everybody is allowed to access. So if you want to hold prisoners seperated you should build some airlock (staff only zones) at their entrance of the wings. Also you shouldn't build any shared cells/dorms etc.

Gang leader: research permanent punishment and set him at perm. punishment and immeadiatly remove the punishment from him

extremely volatile: this are the guys i seperate in my max-wing. There are a lot of guards with tazers and no access to any room that contains weapons. Also i suppress them with armed guards.

canteens/kitchen: well 5 canteens for 1 kitchen is a bit much. You should build multiple ones, but with a proper amount of fridges. If you build to many fridges, the kitchen neares to the delivery zone will hoard the food.

tunnels/contrabant: build some metal detectors and assign some dog patrols at central points (i do install a metal detector at every entrance of a cell block), to reduce contrabant. if prisoners have no tools, they can't dig. A shakedown every few nights at addition should be enough. Well minsec guys are much more likely to dig tunnels. You also can assign some dog handlers to patrol outside the cell block. If you get multiple flags at one point, its much likely that their is a tunnel (1 random flag doesnt say anything, as the dogs often give false positive)

keep 10 special guys alive: easy, send them to permanent punishment, but build an staff only airlock in front of your solitary block. So no prisoners can move free around in the solitary block. i prefer the protective block.


one foreman: set your workshop to shared and limit the access by airlocks.

If your buiding showers in cells, use lockdown instead of shower time. or showertime in the morning to wake the prisoners up. i normal start with shower time in the morning and then eating time. no other shower time is need further at the day, as they could shower while freetime.

[Trixi]

after looking at your video: i have to add something: remove the better clock mod, it causes some troubles with the game.

another small thing, you should add another eating time. And well all prisoners run at the same regime, this is another reason, why your kitchen doesnt work properly.

your fight: a gang leader was punished ....

staff running in circles: save and reload the game (often happens after riots)

[MisterSpock]

I have this timetable:

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=755431095

also have radio and shower in cells, so no more running so much. the cantine is very close to the sleeping rooms. also near the cantine there is the yard.

some rooms arent nessessary like visitor room. visitor need can be filled by phone boxes. 1 box per 10 prisoner is enough. classroom is a thing. it takes a lot of time and allow to run a libary. so im not sure with this. shop is very usefull, it increases the amount of willing to work inmates. chapell is very usefull because spiritual guidance create a calm effect to other prisoners.

[Baal Netbeck]

Originally posted by Jet City Gambler:

Lots of people (including me) have managed to run large complex prisons. If you play without events, it should be ridiculously easy. I haven't watched your video, but just from your rant I would say

Your protective custody and supermax are obviously not secured by an airlock
Recruiting lots of CIs is a breeze, often I have dozens more than I need
Identifying snitches and ex-cops is merely a matter of running a CI to your security office every morning
One kitchen with five canteens seems ridiculous, but maybe it can work
Drug treatment and rehab actually work quite well
You rarely need more than one foreman, because of the interest in the programs
Infections are at worst a mild annoyance
If you're counting on shakedowns to find tunnels you're not doing it right

Thanks for the comment :)

I may not be a "pro" architect;).
-And maybe I was a bit overreacting with the workload of finding snitches...still thinking that it should not be my daily business to find snitches by listen to phonecalls and checking informants on rumors....shouldn't they come into my prison with some kind of background information and/or telling the guards"hey I may be in danger...please protect me"? I don't mind this on a small prison where I take closer looks on the guys but for me, babysitting over 300 guys is not the game I prefere to play.

-Of cause I have Airlocks(staff only zones in between sections).....but if there are shared rooms an the other side they don't work because guards escording prisoner through the airlocks.

-Drug treatment...I'm not sure what they are supposed to do there but if it is "give drugs to prisoners so they are happy for once and come back tomorrow"...yes it is working fine....but it doesn't cure them.

-I have 15 nterested in "Worksho Safety Induction" and 30 interestet/qualified for "Carpentry Apprenticeship"....I want more foremans.....or let external teachers/workmans do the programms.

-Tunnels....I don't know what to do other then doing shakedowns? Dog patrols have a lot of false alarms and if they find one I can't tell which cell is the one with the tunnel...so it is shakedown time at least for the cell block....Maybe I'm doing it wrong^^...tell me what to do.

[Abalister]

I might add for tunnels... do a «search cell block« during the day when they're at work... it's faster than shakedown and I did find a lot of tunnels that way :D

[Baal Netbeck]

Originally posted by Trixi:

after looking at your video: i have to add something: remove the better clock mod, it causes some troubles with the game.

another small thing, you should add another eating time. And well all prisoners run at the same regime, this is another reason, why your kitchen doesnt work properly.

your fight: a gang leader was punished ....

staff running in circles: save and reload the game (often happens after riots)

Thanks for the comment!
-I removed the clock mod....higher speeds didn't work anymore anyway because CPU is limiting;)
-another eating time seems nice...I may give it a try but then I need less work time(can't do that) or less sleep(can't do that too)...maybe cuting one freetime and the lockup time for it.
-Is the AI able to manage different eating times within one kitchen?? not sure but I can try^^
--staff running in circles.....I know that trick..did it in the video too....but thanks :)

[Baal Netbeck]

Originally posted by Trixi:

Originally posted by Baal Netbeck:

...........

Originally posted by Trixi:

Shared area: shared means everybody is allowed to access. So if you want to hold prisoners seperated you should build some airlock (staff only zones) at their entrance of the wings. Also you shouldn't build any shared cells/dorms etc.

did that

Originally posted by Trixi:

Gang leader: research permanent punishment and set him at perm. punishment and immeadiatly remove the punishment from him

I will try that..thanks

Originally posted by Trixi:

extremely volatile: this are the guys i seperate in my max-wing. There are a lot of guards with tazers and no access to any room that contains weapons. Also i suppress them with armed guards.

I do that too....it is under control most of the time, but I would like to have a few days in a row without incident ;).

Originally posted by Trixi:

canteens/kitchen: well 5 canteens for 1 kitchen is a bit much. You should build multiple ones, but with a proper amount of fridges. If you build to many fridges, the kitchen neares to the delivery zone will hoard the food.

Not getting too many fridges sounds like a plan. I will keep that in mind :)

Originally posted by Trixi:

tunnels/contrabant: build some metal detectors and assign some dog patrols at central points (i do install a metal detector at every entrance of a cell block), to reduce contrabant. if prisoners have no tools, they can't dig. A shakedown every few nights at addition should be enough. Well minsec guys are much more likely to dig tunnels. You also can assign some dog handlers to patrol outside the cell block. If you get multiple flags at one point, its much likely that their is a tunnel (1 random flag doesnt say anything, as the dogs often give false positive)

Done that too....but having workshop available gives them wooden tools to dig...dog patrols to find tunnels...yes I tried it...and didn't saw the point in it, so I just do shakedowns every few nights.

Originally posted by Trixi:

keep 10 special guys alive: easy, send them to permanent punishment, but build an staff only airlock in front of your solitary block. So no prisoners can move free around in the solitary block. i prefer the protective block.

I meant permanent punishment when I said "solitary until event is over". I just wish they could live in protective custody instead...sounds like a bug to me.

Originally posted by Trixi:

one foreman: set your workshop to shared and limit the access by airlocks.

I don't see the point...airlocks don't work if prisoner want to go to a shared room. And if they would work, I still can't have workshop programs for everyone.

Originally posted by Trixi:

If your buiding showers in cells, use lockdown instead of shower time. or showertime in the morning to wake the prisoners up. i normal start with shower time in the morning and then eating time. no other shower time is need further at the day, as they could shower while freetime.

done that.

[AlexMBrennan]

Some snitched don't go to their yard(it is near by and marked for them)...they go to the shared yard and get killed --> dividing the shared yard in three sections(min med max) to force them out.

By zoning that yard as shared you are telling the game that ANY prisoner can go there, so zoning the yard as shared when you very clearly do not want the yard to be shared is user error.

-in their free time snitches chill in the shared canteen -> snitched die ->dividing shared canteen.

Same as above. The computer will follow your instructions you did give and not the instructions you ought to have given.

-Gang leader misbehaves...then the whole prison is going crasy as long as he is in solitary->still no cure other then killing him.

That is by design - do you really expect the gang not to care when you punish their leader?

-snitches use other shared rooms to get killed->changing regime so they don't have free time together->snitches get killed while traveling->building a whole new snitch area on the other side of the road with a big "staff only area" in between as a barrier->snitches still want to go on the other side because any shared room is better then their own?!?->guards escording them through the staff only area too their death->me crying.

That seems unlikely as guards will only escort prisoners to specific programs (e.g. parole). Maybe you should think about how you secure these reform program rooms.

-keep 10 special guys alive->marking them as protective doesn't work->they go to the snich area and then guards take them back in the shared cells->solitary until event is over

Again, user error.

-Drug treatment is useless....I need to let them into a infirmary for the program and they leave it with a new needle that can't be detected if you don't search them manually every day after the programm->detectable drugs mod.

The reform program works in the sense that it can help with drug addictions. However, like most thing it's not free and you might as well be complaining that the workshop doesn't give you infinite money at no risk: The point is that you have to manage the risks to get the reward, or forfit the reward (better health score).

[Baal Netbeck]

Update: Summer is coming and hight temperatures overheat my prisoners. I did change the position of some water boilers and bulldozed a few holes in the roof to let heat escape quicker...then finetuned it with a lot of windows...got a few metal detectors on canteen entrys...got a new "gang leader snitch"...I hope he dies soon....the old one died in a riot.

I will update the prison in the workshop too.

[Baal Netbeck]

And I checked the reason for the slaughterfest in the video.....it was a combination of cold and rain causing a high warmth and clothing need...then one instigator startet the fire. not sure how to avoid that in the future....

[John Hadley]

in their free time snitches chill in the shared canteen -> snitched die ->dividing shared canteen.

Snitches can go to a lot of different locations during their free time so you have to make sure that other dangerous people are not on free time, yard time, shower time or meal time at the same time as snitches are on free time. Maybe you give your snitches free time in the middle of the night when everyone else is asleep and when others are awake and on free time you make sure the snitches are on some type of activity that controls their location like work, lockdown, or sleep.

[Baal Netbeck]

Originally posted by John Hadley:

in their free time snitches chill in the shared canteen -> snitched die ->dividing shared canteen.

Snitches can go to a lot of different locations during their free time so you have to make sure that other dangerous people are not on free time, yard time, shower time or meal time at the same time as snitches are on free time. Maybe you give your snitches free time in the middle of the night when everyone else is asleep and when others are awake and on free time you make sure the snitches are on some type of activity that controls their location like work, lockdown, or sleep.

With the third prison, that problem disappears because I have every room 5 times. The only rooms that are still shared are the visitation rooms because otherwise the visitors don't go inside...but that works without problems.

I did use different time regimes on the second prison but then they didn't match with the deployment scheduler...but again..no problem on the thirt prison.

[Baal Netbeck]

I now added dog patrols and more janitors...a few more guards to deploy them in the cell blocks to open doors for staff....and a few more toilets and showers and weight benches in the canteen, so less prisoners go to bed with high need on those.

[lissa_981]

as long as you put a staff only airlock to the entrence of the pc area gaurds will only escort prisoners to parole. Jobs ect can only be done when they are in thier section, so build accordingly. I give them 1 of each reform room and a laundry/ cleaning cubord. I have also started putting parole down a staff only hallway as well to keep gang members from using thier pointless parole hearing to recruit, and stab a snitch. Other then that my 3 main secs all share the work/reform rooms on a staggered scheual allowing for best use of space. Each sec gets it's own yard, canteen and cell block oc, but other then that it's all shared.

I don't bother with visitation much myself, but they do not have to be shared, you can build a visitation for each sec lvl and family will visit just fine (at least up untill a few weeks ago)

As to snitches, I have started putting tapped phones in all my solitery cells. Any prisoner entering with a ?? trait then gets sentenced to perma solitery, that way I find out what thier trait is before they get assigned a cell. It's a shame there is not a view incomming prisoners rap sheet option to set them before they arrive, but it works pretty well.

My currectly under construction 'master prison' is 2000 inmated (400-450 per standard sec lvl, 100 pC, and 500 S max with 50 perma solitery suites so you can definatly build huge prison complexes.