YES you can grind, and NO everything is not random

[sleepy-racoon]

I probably shouldn't talk too much, since i hardly hit the 40 hours mark and did not have the spirit to go though the game without a trainer, (cheating that is) BUT...

just to let some people know what i wish i had known in one wrap-up:

this game is very complicated, it's highly strategic and union composition, skill training, classes, stat exp, and many more factors come into play when trying to go through it. when you think certain options should be availabel, but aren't it's normally not because of bad luck, but because of bad team composition, lack of skills or items or certain placements on the batlefield. if you ever get stuck on a boss (you most certainly will) don't blame the game for 1hit-KOing you, start thinking about its mechanics (thats great, coming from me who was too stupid to do so :))

my time with the last remant was a very confusing one, not because of something the game did, but because of something i did. by the time i reached a certain point in the game (many bosses in a short interval) i had spent as much time reading about the game as i had spent playing it. Low-br-runs, enemy-scaling, being stuck and not able to move on...those were things i was very concerned about. so much in fact, that i started to doubt every move i made while playing.

at this certain point i used a trainer to reset my BR to 1.
heres what i learned from this:

enemies do still hit as hard as they had on BR 56 (which i was before my sad descission :)), and gaining some more stats they started to become a joke. which they stayed. even on a later, much higher BR.

it's only the arts of enemies, their HP (and only to a minor degree) and the speed at which you level up your characters that is notecably affected by BR. the last one being the main point for people trying to do low-br-runs. they make improving later characters more managebale. but it is never impossible. the whole BR/character-development-thing is not a question of possibility but of time.

to experience the game as smooth as possible try to fight enemies that are a challenge - it does save you a lot of time. do sidequests, enjoy the world, story and characters. play around with unions, and try to learn stronger attack-skills and better healing-skills.

don't spend too much time on the internet finding out what exactly scales to what degree and how exactly you are going to be screwed at some point. even with the weakest of members: with the right skills and strategies everything is this game is doable.

and i will prove this theory to myself now - in my second playthrough which i am going to do like i did when there was no gamefaq/steam/ign...

[lirmont]

If you ever find yourself wanting to do something with a similar effect as using a trainer, you get bonus experience towards things (arts, wield styles, etc) with a high chain count (number of consecutive enemy kills without ambush in a specific area), and you can accomplish this by waiting 5 minutes for enemies in a specific area to respawn. It will not lower BR or prevent BR from raising, but it will help close the gap. Large open areas are good for this purpose, especially if you get something interesting to spawn (like dragons). I also use Dilmoor for this at the start of hard mode to help Rush become less defenseless. However, this method is generally a large time commitment.

[sleepy-racoon]

thank you very much. i already erased the trainer vom my pc :) the second time i'm going to fully enjoy the game with methods like the one you just described. i already have a much better grasp on what the game is about and understanding more and more seems part of the fun. so waiting for respawns does work? thats good to know, thanks! i always thought on pc the only way to respawn enemies was the "two maps away"-thingy.

[ToastedTilapia]

Yeah, if you want to take a couple of hours and put yourself ahead of your curve, don't pass up the PC ultimate grind during the Wisdom's Echo Quest. Basically it's a room at the bottom of Aveclyff which has a total spawn of 20 landworms and you can link all of them together to increase your chain anywhere from 99-103 at a time. Mind you, you can't finish the quest and recruit Glenys if you finish it to go redo the grind because once the quest ends, the landworms will no longer be there and they wont be there before attempting the quest. Each fight takes about 10-15 minutes and they respawn almost instantly after finishing the fight. They are a very low BR no matter what part of the game you are at and it's the biggest jump in stats and arts you can get because you get bonus exp the more your chain goes up.

For instance, im a fan of using PC ultimate grind and i tend to do a lot of Cachexia strats for bosses. I use Zolean as a hexer in my Mystic Arts union and even without him being a Union leader and sometimes not even using an art, I can learn Cachexia on him at around the 5200-5800 Chain mark. If you have the time and patience the process takes about 8 hours of grinding. Just turn on netflix or tunes and half consciously play out the fights.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by lirmont:

If you ever find yourself wanting to do something with a similar effect as using a trainer, you get bonus experience towards things (arts, wield styles, etc) with a high chain count (number of consecutive enemy kills without ambush in a specific area), and you can accomplish this by waiting 5 minutes for enemies in a specific area to respawn. It will not lower BR or prevent BR from raising, but it will help close the gap. Large open areas are good for this purpose, especially if you get something interesting to spawn (like dragons). I also use Dilmoor for this at the start of hard mode to help Rush become less defenseless. However, this method is generally a large time commitment.

I wouldn't recommend that.
Even with that chain bonus, this is going to kill your Stats/BR gain ratio pretty quickly, if you do this against regular, multi-union mobs.

There are way better ways to improve your stats or your skills. The easiest are:
- For stats: PC Ultimate Grind, as has been proposed above, is the simplest procedure available. This has to be done at a BR below ~20 to be effective, usually at 15 active party members, therefore Zolean probably can't be involved yet. A chain count of 1000-1500 usually is more than enough and can be done in like 2 hours.
- For skills: Bai Ze grinding (for the first half of the game). That's the best place to raise Hexes skills of your Specialist. Later there are better targets available for grinding both skills and stats.

[Iridescence]

Is there a slightly harder respawnable rare I can grind on in early act 2? I can take down Bai Ze in 4 or 5 rounds now with little challenge but I still am not sure I am ready for the bases quests.

[lirmont]

Originally posted by pinkpanther:

Even with that chain bonus, this is going to kill your Stats/BR gain ratio pretty quickly, if you do this against regular, multi-union mobs.

Which is part of the goal of the method. The art levels (damage and speed boost) and starting morale (damage and defense boost) outpace the balance that BR scaling on the game's part intends to create. This method is essentially to grind past the point it would be bad to grind, which is a large time commitment. Additionally, it's not like there will be no stat increases. It's just not efficient like a much more careful approach is.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by Iridescence:

Is there a slightly harder respawnable rare I can grind on in early act 2? I can take down Bai Ze in 4 or 5 rounds now with little challenge but I still am not sure I am ready for the bases quests.

Unfortunately not until the Ancient Ruins.
You have to nerf the damage output of your units, either by formations or by not upgrading weapons, in order to increase the number of arts being used per enemy union defeated.
Also, switch off all fully developed arts (Tier V) for training. Only use undeveloped ones.

Originally posted by lirmont:

Which is part of the goal of the method. The art levels (damage and speed boost) and starting morale (damage and defense boost) outpace the balance that BR scaling on the game's part intends to create. This method is essentially to grind past the point it would be bad to grind, which is a large time commitment. Additionally, it's not like there will be no stat increases. It's just not efficient like a much more careful approach is.

Then I fail to see 'the goal of this method'.
Constantly fighting short battles against multi-union mobs will wreck your BR pretty fast, without much to show for, even after having reached the chain bonus.
One single battle against Bai Ze will usually result in 5-15 turns of using arts for every member of the active party for only 1/20 of a BR.
One battle against 3 mobs linked will take like ~2 turns, but results in a BR increase of 1/4...1/3.
Even the 2x chain bonus after 370 will not make this a viable method; it's average at best or worse.

To me 'cleaning room' or endlessly killing respawning mobs seems like one of the worst things you can do to the development of the units and has been the recipe of many of the failed runs I know of.
What you want however are long battles with as little BR increase as possible.
Or - if you want to raise stats quickly - linking huge numbers of mobs and defeating them in as few turns as possible, as in the PC Ultimate Grind.

[lirmont]

Originally posted by pinkpanther:

To me 'cleaning room' or endlessly killing respawning mobs seems like one of the worst things you can do to the development of the units and has been the recipe of many of the failed runs I know of.

I've beaten the game at least 10 times like this, and I personally like it because it can be done from the start of the game (where new game plus notably unlocks most categories for Rush at that point). Additionally, it doesn't force a playthrough to choose to abuse an oversight on the game developers' part versus actually doing quests (of which Glenys and the Kosmofest have follow-up quests) and preventing you from hiring a specific unit (Glenys) and going through their loyalty messages.

While we're on the subject, why would the game's design even bother to respawn enemies after 5 minutes? I think it's obviously for chain count, which perhaps this method is an intended method that the game might be partially balanced around. I don't think the game was balanced around intentionally canceling a quest to take advantage of the fail-safe mechanism to complete that quest. There are practically no downsides to that if no value is assigned to completing the quests when they show up (which is part of the game's rolling exploration feature), so of course everything falls short of that.

And the point, just like grinding bugs or a high BR rare monster, is to get all the extra damage and survivability as you can out of your units. Those things have limits in a union, though. Grinding those bugs puts you reaching those limits way later than this method and at the cost of actually playing the game's quests all the way through (if you come to depend on what situations can be abused in them).

And the caveat I prefaced the suggestion with was only if something like a trainer was wanted without actually using a trainer. I said that because this method (1) makes the game easy like using a trainer and (2) can be done at any time on any map like using a trainer. However, unlike a trainer, it takes a long time.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by lirmont:

I've beaten the game at least 10 times like this, and I personally like it because it can be done from the start of the game (where new game plus notably unlocks most categories for Rush at that point). Additionally, it doesn't force a playthrough to choose to abuse an oversight on the game developers' part versus actually doing quests (of which Glenys and the Kosmofest have follow-up quests) and preventing you from hiring a specific unit (Glenys) and going through their loyalty messages.

Of course you can beat the game with good results, despite of this method, if you do most of the other crucial things right (above all: developing the right arts per unit).
Still, this will not change the math regarding the (in)efficiency of that method.
It's simply not worth it IMHO. There are better and more interesting things you can with your playtime.

Originally posted by lirmont:

While we're on the subject, why would the game's design even bother to respawn enemies after 5 minutes? I think it's obviously for chain count, which perhaps this method is an intended method that the game might be partially balanced around. I don't think the game was balanced around intentionally canceling a quest to take advantage of the fail-safe mechanism to complete that quest

Probably because without respawning, that place would be an empty desert after being cleaned.

It seems to me that the game was intended to not make ANY kind of grinding feasible. That's why the BR system turned out as it is now. Still the devs may have overlooked something or intentionally left open, which can be kind of exploited.
But I don't think that your method was inside the scope of the devs either.
People usually get more creative than the devs expect.

And you don't have to forfeit any quest:
- For Wisdom's Echo, you grind it once up to 1000-1500 chains, at 15 active members, then finish the quest. There's no point in coming back, since its efficiency will tank above BR 20.
- Bai Ze can be spawned easily after its quest has been finished too. The time to repeadedly reenter Crookfen until he shows up, on average, is about the same as starting the quest over then walk through Crookfen twice.

BTW, personally I use neither of these grinds anymore; but still recommend them to newer players for their easyness.

[lirmont]

Here's the thing, though. You're focusing that math on 3 links? The game talks about aggro-pulling (getting things to chase Rush) in the tutorial and the manual, and, in addition to that, there are dig spots that reliably give a limited time charm effect (even in early areas) which is safer. So, way more than 3 things can be linked every pull, and fights won't last 2 turns (re: reinforcements). They last upwards of 20 depending on what and how much has been pulled (average is probably 10 turns though). For example, a whole lot of stuff can be linked with aggro-pulling in The Great Sand Sea. That may also get coupled with lesser equipment (depending on how early it's done) and stat-decreasing formations (later).

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Reinforcements actually are even worse, since they increase the union count -> increases BR,
without increasing link count -> which is linked to stat increases.

But linking 7 or more critters changes the math significantly. Then you can fulfill the 'union count minus turn count' >= 9 criteria for maximum BR gain reduction.
This changes everything and that method becomes very effective.
Here's an example video I put up some time ago to show how this can be done in any place where you're able to link this many creatures:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=533669423
The best source for understanding that math is the following page:
http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_Rank

[sleepy-racoon]

i actually prefer the "cleaning rooms" and waiting for respawning, simply because to me this feels more like exploring and therefore enjoying the games world. and i really like that the game let's you do this without being impossible to beat (wich many people made it look like). sure, you pay a price. you have to invest much more time later on to get those stats and skills. but as enemies don't REALLY scale, or just to a minor degree and more so as they cap at a certain point the main game is still always managable.i like how many options you have and how clever you can play by using rare monsters or low-br-approaches, but you CAN do it any other way. i like turning off all skills i do not want to improve and link as many competent monsters as possible. switching around team-members makes leveling up skills not that difficult. also: in most situations stats help, but they do not ensure victory. so theres really not much you can actually do WRONG...exept maybe grinding for 20 - 30 hours on mobs while first visiting dillmore :) this could really turn out to be a problem.

[Iridescence]

"Also, switch off all fully developed arts (Tier V) for training. Only use undeveloped ones."

Thanks! This in particular is very good to know. I still don't really understand how the skills get "experience" and level up. Is it like if a character casts Bewitch they get a chance to level only Bewitch or does casting Bewitch also help them get experience towards improving Cachexia?
From what you said I assume it is the former but sometimes I notice they level up skills they rarely use so I'm not sure.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by tobitanzt:

i actually prefer the "cleaning rooms" and waiting for respawning, simply because to me this feels more like exploring and therefore enjoying the games world. and i really like that the game let's you do this without being impossible to beat (wich many people made it look like). sure, you pay a price. you have to invest much more time later on to get those stats and skills.

Of course feel free to enjoy the game your way.
The game actually has enough room to neglect (or 'mismanage' if you like) ONE aspect out of three and still is beatable:
1. Well developed arts
2. Well developed stats (you will suffer a bit in this regard)
3. Equipment upgrades
(in the order of importance)

Originally posted by Iridescence:

I still don't really understand how the skills get "experience" and level up. Is it like if a character casts Bewitch they get a chance to level only Bewitch or does casting Bewitch also help them get experience towards improving Cachexia?
From what you said I assume it is the former but sometimes I notice they level up skills they rarely use so I'm not sure.

In a nutshell:
To level up skills, you need to use:
- For Combat Arts: Regular attack or any Combat Art
- For Mystic or Item Arts: Any art of the respective type, e.g. spamming the lowest ranked Hexes art will eventually lead to Cachexia, with the caveat that to advance your mystic skills to the next rank, you also need to level one art of the previous rank at least to tier II. For example to get Bewitch you need Dispirit at least at Tier II.
You can look up these ranks for mystic arts here:
http://lastremnant.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Arts