Darien or Sibal?

[JanuaryWinter12]

Hi everyone, (hope that I'm not the only one still playing this game after years...)

So I'm replaying this game again (and again, because I really love it!) and was wondering about your thoughts on these two.

They are pretty similar in my experience with the similarity of arts and physical-based attacks - both are good healers (herbs) with Darien mastering Lotion much earlier. The other good thing about him is Remedy and Potion (Potion is not very useful except to get healing action when starting out battles though); they are somewhat more useful than Sibal's Invocation and Explosive (explosive is nice but I'm pretty certain most people don't use Sibal for the Explosive). The best thing about Darien, of course, is his early acquisition in the game, while Sibal doesn't come until much later after the Bases.
What I like about Sibal though, is his weapon Daedalus which, if I remember correctly, its final upgrade has one of the highest ATK stat in the game. I know STR matters and Darien (with him early joining in the game) might get higher STR stat, but his weapon is not as good; not to mention I could never get the abelisk to drop war dragon rawhide to upgrade him from his pitchfork. I also vaguely remember that Sibal has somewhat of a higher HP.

And last but not least, (though this is rather insignificant to most), I like Sibal because he sorta... looks cooler (Darien is funnily annoying though lol).

I have used Sibal in most of my playthroughs, but decided to keep Darien the last time instead of him, and while Darien is an excellent player, I still feel like Sibal with his final weapon outdoes damage of Darien's....

What do you think?

[SenMithrarin85]

Even though Darien can train lotions, his class is locked to scout (which boosts herbs) so its better to continue to use his (already well developed) herbs. You can get around the need for war dragon rawhides by buying him the imperator's lance (he must be on a combat focus) which will cause him to skip an upgrade tier and make getting his last weapon easier.

Sibal is a guardian and even though his herbs are well levelled, they will lack the potency bonus from the scout class (which he cannot go into) he'll also miss hunter (which boosts lotions). His final weapon though is a remnant one and fairly easy to upgrade.

Explosives are too expensive to train on a normal playthrough and both lack the INT stat to use mystic arts well. Also, Potions being trained will lead to the Bard class (which removes all ailments after one turn at legendary level) but both are locked into their current class, so training potions is useless for them.

what influences damage more than weapon stats is the combat art's level. Darien is an early hire and that gives him plenty of time to get his arts well trained. Sibal being much later doesn't affor that luxury sadly.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

From their class both are rather defensive units: Sibal as Guardian can swallow more damage while Darien as Scout is the better healer.

Provided that their damage output was similar, I would put Sibal into a union meant for deadlock, while Darien would be better served in a flanking union, where from that position he can throw in an occasional healing art for your damaged deadlock unions.

So how does their damage output compare (under same circumstances)?

Both units won't get any damage bonus from their classes, since both are defensive.
Sibal's lowest possible endgame weapon would be the standard Daedalus with ATK/DEF of 142/47.
After two painful upgrades he'd have the Virtutis version of it, increasing its stats to 187/63.
It's not that much more than the standard version, personally I would not waste so much time just for a 32% improvement of ATK.

Now let's take a look at Darien's options:
He starts with the regular Pitchfork at 65/25. For sure this is not an endgame weapon, so we have to do something here.
His standard upgrade path leads to the Superior Pitchfork (97/36), then to the Superlative Pitchfork (142/57). Now we're talking endgame, after two upgrades we have something comparable to the Daedalus (which Sibal will get for free, without farming anything, an advantage for him). And if we set Darien on combat focus at BR 37 or 60, one more quite painless upgrade will bring us to the Might Pitchfork, which is a major step upwards, because of the [Combat Arts] +5 effect. This means when using a combat art, that weapon will have an equivalent of ~205 ATK, beating the Daedalus Virtutis comfortably.
As has been mentioned, there is a shortcut to it: If you set Darien to combat focus, he will pick up the Imperator's Lance (can be bought in Undelwalt, if you have enough Imperator points), as long as he hasn't reached the Superlative Pitchfork. From there he will try to upgrade directly to the Superlative Pitchfork.

TL;DR
While Sibal has the more straightforward options, from a decent endgame weapon to a very good one, Darien starts quite weakly equipped and needs to be upgraded. His options are more complicated and can only fully achieved after being set to combat focus. The recommended upgrade path leads to the Imperator's Lance, then Superlative Pitchfork and finally Might Pitchfork.
After that - concerning damage - Darien will be at least as good as Sibal.

To compare the other skills each unit aquires at certain BRs makes no sense, because Remedies/Invocations are completely useless for both units, because of their low INT.
Potions can be fun, but mostly useless too.

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

Devil's Fork any good?

[SenMithrarin85]

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

Devil's Fork any good?

It has instakill on it, but rares and bosses are immune. Still, I think its his highest level weapon iirc.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

Devil's Fork any good?

Compared to the Might Pitchfork: No
The only thing the Devil's Fork has going for is the Godly Pierce modifier, which combined with a matching Combat Art like Cascade Strike results in ~14% damage boost, so in the end it's about on par with the Might Pitchfork with its [Combat Arts] +5 effect.
Same damage but only 37% of DEF does not warrant the upgrade. And Instakill effect is useless against bosses.

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

anywhere i can find about weapon modifier? (how many % increased) i can only find those combat art that increased by 15% at level 5, btw does STR affect combat art damage? (before or after armor though), also 2x Superlative Hawkwind + 2 black belts + axman class is the best i can get the most physical damage right? ty for helping :D

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

or 2x Shielding Hawkwind instead? (it doesn't give 2x[Pierce] Attack +5) but has godly pierce + slightly higher dmg, but also change from speed to power modifier (which based on what i read is not worth it since it will be a lot slower but only gain slight dmg only)

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

sry for bumping too many times lol, but if for example, i performed "Swift Blood Rage V which has Godly pierce, i will not get extra dmg from "Superlative Hawkwind" right? since its mighty not godly but i still get that [Pierce] Attack +5 (which im still not sure how much % in dmg those normal, mighty, godly give) hope u can help ^_^

[PinkPаптҥэя]

No, I got these numbers by doing damage tests against Bai Ze with Rush solo, made invincible using a trainer. Using mystic seal only base damage is displayed, without RNG, allowing for precise comparisons. That's how you can exactly tell these +14% damage bonus by using Godly modifiers (+3.5% for Mighty).

The highest damage build you can get is Dual Wield, Axman class, 2x Might Splitter, 2x Black Belt.
Two Might Splitter have their [Combat Arts] +5 effect stacked, so it's +30% damage.
Another option is 2x Divine Tomahawk, which comes quite close.

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

...if for example, i performed "Swift Blood Rage V which has Godly pierce, i will not get extra dmg from "Superlative Hawkwind" right?...

The damage bonus depends on the modifier of the weapon, if it is matched with whatever kind of matching modifier of the Combat Art. So the Superlative Hawkwind will only ever add +3.5% to its damage, regardless of the matching CA modifier being Mighty or Godly.

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

Originally posted by pinkpanther:

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

...if for example, i performed "Swift Blood Rage V which has Godly pierce, i will not get extra dmg from "Superlative Hawkwind" right?...

The damage bonus depends on the modifier of the weapon, if it is matched with whatever kind of matching modifier of the Combat Art. So the Superlative Hawkwind will only ever add +3.5% to its damage, regardless of the matching CA modifier being Mighty or Godly.

i see, so whichever weapon that boosted CA+5 would always be better n also won't restrict as much even with lower dmg it still outperformed, btw about axman class, those STR +10% &
[Axe] +5, did they increase damage on CA or just pure physical attack? (i think i remember asking this before but forgot lol, need to note this time :p)

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

...btw does STR affect combat art damage? (before or after armor though),...

Simplified damage formulas
====================

For a regular attack, the damage is more or less proportional to:
(ATK - Enemy Defense) * (STR + Wield Style Skill)

For combat arts, the formula is extended by 'Art Base Dmg', which depends on the respective art and Tier:
(Art Base Dmg + ATK - Enemy Defense) * (Art Base Dmg + STR + 2*Wield Style Skill) * Art Base Dmg

An example of Art Base Dmg is 100 for Peerless Bladedancer V

ATK always has a RNG part of 0...1/8 added to it, that's where the randomness comes from (except from critical hits).

There are further modifiers down the line, like Effects, Element/Creature Class Modifiers etc., but the above is the basis of the damage calculations.

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

Originally posted by pinkpanther:

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

...btw does STR affect combat art damage? (before or after armor though),...

Simplified damage formulas
====================

For a regular attack, the damage is more or less proportional to:
(ATK - Enemy Defense) * (STR + Wield Style Skill)

For combat arts, the formula is extended by 'Art Base Dmg', which depends on the respective art and Tier:
(Art Base Dmg + ATK - Enemy Defense) * (Art Base Dmg + STR + 2*Wield Style Skill) * Art Base Dmg

There are further modifiers down the line, like Effects, Element/Creature Class Modifiers etc., but this is the basis of the damage calculations.

TY VM once again ^_^, btw r u sunzi by any chance :p

[PinkPаптҥэя]

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

TY VM once again ^_^, btw r u sunzi by any chance :p

No, but I learned a lot by reading her posts and those of Atmaone. She and him are the most knowledgable players giving help over at Gamefaqs forum, where I once started participating too, but then I got into arguments with that Seapirate liar dude, which led to him having some of my posts deleted for apparently violating forum rules, like 'off topic posting'.
I decided to stop wasting my time there and came here to Steam forums, where I never experienced any problems at all. Eventually got so deep into the mechanics of the game by myself that now I can answer most of the stuff me and others want to know.

[Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe]

Originally posted by pinkpanther:

Originally posted by Ca'ntThinKoFAGoOdNaMe:

TY VM once again ^_^, btw r u sunzi by any chance :p

No, but I learned a lot by reading her posts and those of Atmaone. She and him are the most knowledgable players giving help over at Gamefaqs forum, where I once started participating too, but then I got into arguments with that Seapirate liar dude, which led to him having some of my posts deleted for apparently violating forum rules, like 'off topic posting'.
I decided to stop wasting my time there and came here to Steam forums, where I never experienced any problems at all. Eventually got so deep into the mechanics of the game by myself that now I can answer most of the stuff me and others want to know.

i see, mayb go hang around wikia too :p
i see Zephyr135 (sunzi) still active to these days correcting misspell n stuff