Pinball FX

Pinball FX

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Only 48% of recent reviews are positive
Overall 54% of all reviews are positive so the reviews seem to be getting worse. Has something changed recently? Or is it just a statistical blip i wonder? Either way, Zen have messed this up royally as the review score must be off putting to new potential customers.
Last edited by Jambon Emmental; Aug 15, 2023 @ 8:26am
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Showing 241-255 of 267 comments
Bubblegum Witch Aug 27, 2023 @ 4:21pm 
Originally posted by Sorthious:
It's funny that you two keep repeating that all these complaints are really about getting free tables Continue to delude yourselves that that is the issue here.
We aren't just talking about you. There are hundreds of people participating in review bombing tactics. Your primary grievance may genuinely be with bugs and optimization, but that's not true for the majority of negative reviews. And as has been pointed out, Pinball FX isn't an exceptionally buggy game outside of physics idiosyncrasies in the "remastered" tables.

You're acting as though the game's current state is cataclysmic when it is not, and that behavior is unlikely to yield a productive response. All you can do is report bugs to the correct places and move on.

Originally posted by Sorthious:
I want the ones I bought fixed and FX4 to be optimized. I'm not sure why it is difficult to read and comprehend peoples complaints.
You haven't gone to school to understand what "optimizing a game" means. I have. Technically I dropped out, but the reason we're talking past each other is that two of us have game dev experience, while you clearly don't.

Writing efficient code is much harder than writing code that works. Optimization is the most engineering-knowledge intensive aspect of game development, and refactoring the game's codebase to perform better would consume months worth of manhours while doing nothing of substance to drive sales. Businesses only invest in projects they expect to bring a return. How many people would buy Pinball FX4 tables if the engine performed 20% better that aren't buying them now? Probably not enough to justify the cost.

After multiple performance patches and an apparently-acceptable Switch port, I can't see them going back to make major changes. The only factor that might justify additional optimization is improved Steam Deck performance, Star Trek: TNG on Deck looks rough, but it's not a large enough bottleneck for the majority of users to qualify as a "must fix" issue. We've already received two major performance patches, so it's likely the low hanging fruit has all been fixed, and with support for all three upscaler algorithms already implemented I can't see it warranting further investment.

Right now Zen's #1 priority is to license every holy grail table, recreate them acceptably, and then trying to maximize subscriber revenue at the point where buying every single table has become prohibitively expensive. That's where the money is, so that's where they're going.

I'm not exactly thrilled with the game's performance either, but the fact that we're both talking in terms of "it's playable but should run better than this" speaks volumes. Compared to the day one EGS build, which had appalling frametimes on high end hardware, the current state of FX4 isn't really that bad. Unfortunately it's not very good either.

At this point, though, I'd rather see Zen get their act together and implement an antialiasing technique that doesn't make the ramps look noisy and gross. It's a somewhat intrinsic problem, those bright silver lines are in high contrast with the playfield, but there's no escaping that they look really bad right now. Despite lighting overall being much better than FX3, that particular aspect of the image quality is wanting.
Last edited by Bubblegum Witch; Aug 27, 2023 @ 11:30pm
Yeah, the whole "OMG bugs. FX3 abandoned!!! (after 6 years, natch)" remains a way for salty cheapskates to take shots at Zen because they weren't given free FX tables.
Jambon Emmental Aug 28, 2023 @ 2:37am 
Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
There are hundreds of people participating in review bombing tactics.

Hard to say what's happening, but that theory sounds potentially plausible.

Another possible theory is that, upon being asked to pay for what is nominally the same table for potentially the third time, the average, casual gamer is expecting to see a much more noticeable improvement that what's being offered in FX. When they boot up FX for the first time and compare the free tables to their FX3 counterparts, for non-experts like myself it's genuinely quite hard to spot the visual improvements, especially if you're playing on an older PC or don't have the best monitor (my setup is pretty good and i still struggle to see much difference).

Also, to the average gamer, the free Zen originals may feel unfamiliar and less fun because they were designed around a different set of physics. Whilst the the top players will (presumably correctly) point out that the physics are much improved in FX, this isn't necessarily something that most casual gamers notice or value.

In order to entice people to part with their money for potentially the third time i think Zen should have been offering something that looks, to the average gamer, like a real next gen, step-change. Whilst that might have happened under the hood thanks to the Unreal Engine, it's not particularly obvious to those picking up the game for the first time and giving it a quick trial. Maybe something like VR support or cross-platform purchases or the much touted Pinball Royale mode would have made FX feel more of a significant progression.

And then, in addition to being generally underwhelmed by improvements that aren't immediately obvious, people spot things like "coins", collectables, ads that you can't remove and a new subscription model. Not saying any of these things ARE scams or unreasonable (though i personally hate the ads), but they are things that tend to be associated with the worst and most predatory mobile games. So the overall feeling is one of stinkiness and low quality and players start to suspect a cash grab. The 30+GB download size doesn't help either - people might feel they've waited a while for the download only to be totally underwhelmed and potentially the victim of a dodgy cash grab.

So there's quite a few factors that result in a very bad first impression and maybe that's what's behind many of the bad reviews. Just a theory though.
Last edited by Jambon Emmental; Aug 28, 2023 @ 4:02am
FoxyLoxy Aug 28, 2023 @ 3:57am 
Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
Writing efficient code is much harder than writing code that works. Optimization is the most engineering-knowledge intensive aspect of game development...

Mmm, that's up for debate. Optimization is a broad subject, but many optimization tasks are narrow in scope.

Often, the biggest performance gains don't come from trying to shave milliseconds from vital routines. Rather, it's how the system is used. Low hanging fruit is cheap, code is expensive.

You can optimize a level (or entire game) without touching a line of code. Geometry, streaming settings, shader counts, texture sizes, particle systems, entity counts, drawing modes, collision detection parameters, pathfinding settings etc. all contribute to scene complexity, load.

And most of that is going to be managed by level designers and technical artists in editors, not by engine programmers. After all, one of the main benefits of using a general purpose engine like Unreal is so you're not spending so much time/money optimising engine code.

The idea that PFX should be better optimized is a valid one.

We should expect Zen to use Unreal 4 more efficiently over time as they gain experience with it. I'm looking at you Curse of the Mummy...

Zen have already said that the latest Switch patch should improve graphics. And they've said that work on the Switch's special requirements will feed development in the other PFX builds.
Last edited by FoxyLoxy; Aug 28, 2023 @ 5:32am
Sorthious Aug 28, 2023 @ 6:38am 
Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
Originally posted by Sorthious:
It's funny that you two keep repeating that all these complaints are really about getting free tables Continue to delude yourselves that that is the issue here.
We aren't just talking about you. There are hundreds of people participating in review bombing tactics. Your primary grievance may genuinely be with bugs and optimization, but that's not true for the majority of negative reviews. And as has been pointed out, Pinball FX isn't an exceptionally buggy game outside of physics idiosyncrasies in the "remastered" tables.

You're acting as though the game's current state is cataclysmic when it is not, and that behavior is unlikely to yield a productive response. All you can do is report bugs to the correct places and move on.

Originally posted by Sorthious:
I want the ones I bought fixed and FX4 to be optimized. I'm not sure why it is difficult to read and comprehend peoples complaints.
You haven't gone to school to understand what "optimizing a game" means. I have. Technically I dropped out, but the reason we're talking past each other is that two of us have game dev experience, while you clearly don't.

Writing efficient code is much harder than writing code that works. Optimization is the most engineering-knowledge intensive aspect of game development, and refactoring the game's codebase to perform better would consume months worth of manhours while doing nothing of substance to drive sales. Businesses only invest in projects they expect to bring a return. How many people would buy Pinball FX4 tables if the engine performed 20% better that aren't buying them now? Probably not enough to justify the cost.

After multiple performance patches and an apparently-acceptable Switch port, I can't see them going back to make major changes. The only factor that might justify additional optimization is improved Steam Deck performance, Star Trek: TNG on Deck looks rough, but it's not a large enough bottleneck for the majority of users to qualify as a "must fix" issue. We've already received two major performance patches, so it's likely the low hanging fruit has all been fixed, and with support for all three upscaler algorithms already implemented I can't see it warranting further investment.

Right now Zen's #1 priority is to license every holy grail table, recreate them acceptably, and then trying to maximize subscriber revenue at the point where buying every single table has become prohibitively expensive. That's where the money is, so that's where they're going.

I'm not exactly thrilled with the game's performance either, but the fact that we're both talking in terms of "it's playable but should run better than this" speaks volumes. Compared to the day one EGS build, which had appalling frametimes on high end hardware, the current state of FX4 isn't really that bad. Unfortunately it's not very good either.

At this point, though, I'd rather see Zen get their act together and implement an antialiasing technique that doesn't make the ramps look noisy and gross. It's a somewhat intrinsic problem, those bright silver lines are in high contrast with the playfield, but there's no escaping that they look really bad right now. Despite lighting overall being much better than FX3, that particular aspect of the image quality is wanting.

As I said, I don't care how Zen fixes the issues, just that they do. If they don't I won't be buying, which has nothing to do with getting free tables. I believe many people just aren't interested in buying the same thing over and over. As for Upscaling, FSR isn't working properly and XeSS isn't working right for me(I think it may be an AMD specific issue). There are many issues that are major that haven't been fixed; just look at the Bug Report list. I've been waiting nearly half a year to see Bride of Pinbot fixed, which has a game-breaking bug in it. If they won't fix these issues promptly(or at all), what confidence does that give a potential customer in Zen.

I don't need to take a particular coarse to understand what optimization is, and it's not hard to tell when a game isn't properly optimized. It's Zen's job to hire people who are qualified.
WearyAmoeba Aug 28, 2023 @ 11:40am 
I think Zen are probably doing fine. This loudest yelling comes from a small percentage of players. Same with the bad reviews. Most people don't leave reviews. Started with the weird Epic/Steam haters and went on from there. I'm in the process of rebuying my stuff, haven't replayed all of them but like what I've seen. No issues. I don't expect a company to keep supporting FX3 tables I bought years ago. If you think that's reasonable, you do you. I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise.
Sorthious Aug 28, 2023 @ 7:23pm 
Originally posted by WearyAmoeba:
I think Zen are probably doing fine. This loudest yelling comes from a small percentage of players. Same with the bad reviews. Most people don't leave reviews. Started with the weird Epic/Steam haters and went on from there. I'm in the process of rebuying my stuff, haven't replayed all of them but like what I've seen. No issues. I don't expect a company to keep supporting FX3 tables I bought years ago. If you think that's reasonable, you do you. I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise.

It's not about supporting tables you bought years ago. It's about Zen leaving tables with major bugs on them, and never fixing them. There is a problem on Williams Tables on FX3, where, over time, the flippers go askew and, at a point, will disappear, if your game lasts long enough. You have to shutdown the game and reload it to fix this issue. FX4 has various major bugs right now, which they haven't fixed after 4+ months. If that's the kind of quality you expect out of a company, you do you, and continue to buy them.
Bubblegum Witch Aug 28, 2023 @ 9:48pm 
Originally posted by Sorthious:
There is a problem on Williams Tables on FX3, where, over time, the flippers go askew and, at a point, will disappear, if your game lasts long enough. You have to shutdown the game and reload it to fix this issue.
That sounds like a pretty severe bug. How long is "long enough"? How often is this happening? Does the behavior occur at 60fps or is it solely a high refresh rate issue? I can find absolutely nothing with Google, but that's typical of Google these days.

It would seem like both of the following can't be true: "87% of players are happy with Pinball FX3" and "Pinball FX3 tables don't work correctly for a significant percentage of users". If Zen failed to address bugs that are impacting a large number of people... why aren't there more complaints? As it stands, most of the negativity is related to how DLC was handled for Pinball FX4. It's not like the Williams tables wouldn't have sold well, those are Zen's crown jewels. If a bug is affecting so few players, it's not fair to characterize it as major. The impact may be disruptive for you, but its reach is limited.

Out of curiosity, I scrolled through all of the top voted negative reviews for Pinball FX3 and exactly zero of them mention bugs in the game. Ergo I'm going to reasonably conclude that the bug you're describing is not widespread. If I had to guess, it probably hasn't been fixed due to being an edge case that is difficult to troubleshoot and/or fix. If the issue only manifests after hours, that definitely has the potential to be hard to reproduce.

Unfortunately no software developer is able to fix every single bug. I reported a scoring issue in the Switch version of Pinball FX3's Medieval Madness table that caused my score doubler to continue indefinitely and they were never able to track down the cause. I actually felt rather bad, I'd reached... I want to say #7 in survival and the score was not legitimate. It was a very good round, but not that good.

Objects slowly shifting across screen sounds like a floating point rounding issue. If the bug is something along the lines of "rounding errors accumulate when running at 1000+ fps" I can't fault them for saying "edge case, won't fix". That's a reasonable response. Every time you talk about these bugs, it feels like you're deliberately omitting a lot of information.

Originally posted by Sorthious:
It's not about supporting tables you bought years ago. It's about Zen leaving tables with major bugs on them, and never fixing them. If that's the kind of quality you expect out of a company, you do you, and continue to buy them.
This was uncalled for, don't shout at strangers. At least I'm used to it at this point, although I'd told myself I was going to stop replying.

Originally posted by FoxyLoxy:
Often, the biggest performance gains don't come from trying to shave milliseconds from vital routines. Rather, it's how the system is used. Low hanging fruit is cheap, code is expensive.

You can optimize a level (or entire game) without touching a line of code. Geometry, streaming settings, shader counts, texture sizes, particle systems, entity counts, drawing modes, collision detection parameters, pathfinding settings etc. all contribute to scene complexity, load.
You're entirely correct and I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but I don't think that really changes the underlying point that I was making. Figuring out the most efficient way to implement visual effects is still very challenging work that goes much faster when it's being handled by experienced staff, and Zen are working with limited resources and a business mandate to implement as many tables as possible so that they can capitalize on the subscription gold rush (or die trying). They've also already dropped two major performance patches, which gives us good reason to think that most of the low hanging fruit has already been trimmed.

I'm glad this whole project isn't my mess.
C²C^Guyver |NZB| Aug 29, 2023 @ 12:16am 
Originally posted by Sorthious:
Originally posted by WearyAmoeba:
I think Zen are probably doing fine. This loudest yelling comes from a small percentage of players. Same with the bad reviews. Most people don't leave reviews. Started with the weird Epic/Steam haters and went on from there. I'm in the process of rebuying my stuff, haven't replayed all of them but like what I've seen. No issues. I don't expect a company to keep supporting FX3 tables I bought years ago. If you think that's reasonable, you do you. I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise.

It's not about supporting tables you bought years ago. It's about Zen leaving tables with major bugs on them, and never fixing them. There is a problem on Williams Tables on FX3, where, over time, the flippers go askew and, at a point, will disappear, if your game lasts long enough. You have to shutdown the game and reload it to fix this issue. FX4 has various major bugs right now, which they haven't fixed after 4+ months. If that's the kind of quality you expect out of a company, you do you, and continue to buy them.
I own every Williams table in FX3 and have never had my flippers disappear or seen anyone else's disappear either.
Last edited by C²C^Guyver |NZB|; Aug 29, 2023 @ 12:17am
ANGELICA ZAPATA Aug 29, 2023 @ 4:59am 
This is because you haven't seen the comments on Metacritic... So very negative...
Pinballwiz45b Aug 29, 2023 @ 5:00am 
Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
Unfortunately no software developer is able to fix every single bug. I reported a scoring issue in the Switch version of Pinball FX3's Medieval Madness table that caused my score doubler to continue indefinitely and they were never able to track down the cause. I actually felt rather bad, I'd reached... I want to say #7 in survival and the score was not legitimate. It was a very good round, but not that good.

I'm led to believe that was caused by Royal Madness. I don't know if Zen's logic was looking at music/sound cues or lights, because Multiball Madness starts at the same shot, and those lights also flash for Royal.
Sorthious Aug 29, 2023 @ 8:22am 
Originally posted by C²C^Guyver |NZB|:
I own every Williams table in FX3 and have never had my flippers disappear or seen anyone else's disappear either.

Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
Originally posted by Sorthious:
There is a problem on Williams Tables on FX3, where, over time, the flippers go askew and, at a point, will disappear, if your game lasts long enough. You have to shutdown the game and reload it to fix this issue.
That sounds like a pretty severe bug. How long is "long enough"? How often is this happening? Does the behavior occur at 60fps or is it solely a high refresh rate issue? I can find absolutely nothing with Google, but that's typical of Google these days.

Why not look at FX3's bug list?! I'd have figured that would be the first place you would have started. It took me less than one minute to find it.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/442120/discussions/search/?gidtopic=1520386297687601515&sort=time&q=flipper+rotate

Originally posted by Sorthious:
Originally posted by peremptor:
Yeah the top flipper is super bugged. Starts doing all kinds of crazy stuff doing 360s and what not.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2393164517

Yeah here's a shot clearly showing how messed up the flipper can get... it can also start to rotate in the Y plane as well so it actually goes over or under the table itself. Yeah it's pretty crazy haha.

Really limits what you can do to on the table when it happens. BTW on the video itself you can see the flipper is already a bit messed up it doesn't go back to its correct resting location.

Found another machine with the Flipper issue. I was pretty sure it was a Williams table. Anyway here it is: Red & Ted

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2424186579

There is also an issue on FX3 with the flipper getting stuck after leaving the pause menu(and other times), which requires the flipper button to be pressed to reset it, which can and has caused a ball to be lost.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/442120/discussions/search/?gidtopic=1520386297687601515&sort=time&q=flipper+stuck
Sorthious Aug 29, 2023 @ 8:38am 
Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
It would seem like both of the following can't be true: "87% of players are happy with Pinball FX3" and "Pinball FX3 tables don't work correctly for a significant percentage of users". If Zen failed to address bugs that are impacting a large number of people... why aren't there more complaints?
I suppose if you're just a casual beginner player and your games last less than a few minutes, you might not notice the flipper issue. That doesn't mean it's not there, and it doesn't require a certain percentage of people reporting a bug for it to be real.

Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
Objects slowly shifting across screen sounds like a floating point rounding issue. If the bug is something along the lines of "rounding errors accumulate when running at 1000+ fps" I can't fault them for saying "edge case, won't fix". That's a reasonable response. Every time you talk about these bugs, it feels like you're deliberately omitting a lot of information.
This is the problem with development these days, edge casing bugs. Oh, it only affects 5% of players, screw em! Your talking about floating point numbers!? How many players do you think know/care about how something is programmed? Programming is intended to abstract the inner-workings of a piece of software away so the user doesn't have to know how it works, just that is does.



Originally posted by Sorthious:
Originally posted by WearyAmoeba:
I think Zen are probably doing fine. This loudest yelling comes from a small percentage of players. Same with the bad reviews. Most people don't leave reviews. Started with the weird Epic/Steam haters and went on from there. I'm in the process of rebuying my stuff, haven't replayed all of them but like what I've seen. No issues. I don't expect a company to keep supporting FX3 tables I bought years ago. If you think that's reasonable, you do you. I'm sure I can't convince you otherwise.

It's not about supporting tables you bought years ago. It's about Zen leaving tables with major bugs on them, and never fixing them. There is a problem on Williams Tables on FX3, where, over time, the flippers go askew and, at a point, will disappear, if your game lasts long enough. You have to shutdown the game and reload it to fix this issue. FX4 has various major bugs right now, which they haven't fixed after 4+ months. If that's the kind of quality you expect out of a company, you do you, and continue to buy them.

Originally posted by Bubblegum Witch:
This was uncalled for, don't shout at strangers. At least I'm used to it at this point, although I'd told myself I was going to stop replying.

When people keep trying to undermine peoples legitimate complaints, I can, and will respond. Where is the shouting?! Are the words yelling at you somehow?
Some people are too slow to understand that Zen has an actual, official place to report bugs.
(Hint, it ain't the steam forums).


Originally posted by "Linne_Zen":
Please report all bugs here you experienced in Pinball FX.

When reporting a bug, please include which device/platform you play on.

Also attaching a screenshot/gameplay video could help us tremendously and speed up the process of finding these issues.


Last edited by ⎛⎝⎛-||-⎞ ⎠⎞; Aug 29, 2023 @ 2:57pm
Sorthious Aug 29, 2023 @ 3:05pm 
Originally posted by ⎛⎝⎛-||-⎞ ⎠⎞:
Some people are too slow to understand that Zen has an actual, official place to report bugs.
(Hint, it ain't the steam forums).


Originally posted by "Linne_Zen":
Please report all bugs here you experienced in Pinball FX.

When reporting a bug, please include which device/platform you play on.

Also attaching a screenshot/gameplay video could help us tremendously and speed up the process of finding these issues.

Well, it's rather odd that a Zen Devloper would provide a Bug Report Page in Discussions and encourage Steam users to report bugs for FX4, if it wasn't official. What is the point of this page if it isn't where a customer is supposed to report bugs? One would think that if this wasn't the Official place to report bugs, that a Zen Developer would include an external link for customers to report bugs. Sorry for my lack of mental acuity, but perhaps you could enlighten me on this subject, Eddie.

Originally posted by Akos:
Thanks, RodRov for the reminder!

Feel free to use this topic for table bugs or things you encounter.

1.) bugs inside the tables themselves:

- which table were you playing
- what game mode you were playing (etc.: Classic, 1 Ball Challenge, Tournament)
- what mode was running (multiball, main mode, minigame etc)
- what happened

2.) Bugs in the game/interface:

- where did it happen (in options, game mode, my tables screen, at startup)
- what happened
- pc specs
- any error text, if available

Thank you!
Akos
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Date Posted: Aug 15, 2023 @ 8:24am
Posts: 267