No more Zen originals for me.

[Takise]

First of all, let me say that this is not a criticism, just my private feeling.

Yesterday I played the original table from VPV, Die Hard Trilogy and I realized what I was missing in the Zen originals and I couldn't quite pinpoint it before.

I miss the setting that makes me feel like I'm playing real pinball.
I think Zen has created a lot of great original designs that lack a sense of visual realism.

I won't go into detail about specific tables from the past.
But for example, if the latest tables from the M series took on visual realism like Die Hard Trilogy and the cartoon tables visually came closer to Sponge Bobs Bikini Bottom and the futuristic Mars, by the way, one of my favorite tables, went in the direction of Blood Machines... then I would feel that we have dealing with the true evolution of FX.

A table created by a handful of time-constrained amateurs using an old, archaic editor made me feel like I was playing electronic pinball in the 21st century.

Simply on a large screen in 4k at 120hz you get the feeling of playing real pinball and it is a truly breathtaking experience.

The last time I had this was when I played Pro Pinball Timeshock ages ago.

So Zen, why, when you have specialist hardware and software, do you not use the power?

I'm staying true to your Williams series and I'm looking forward to more.

[Whakahoatanga]

Some of the originals they have are mediocre but they also have some really good ones. I don't really get the complaining about their originals. Sure, not all of them are great, but I'd really miss South Park if they would suddenly remove it.

[Mal]

I agree with your post regarding graphic design. M, on the whole, does a much better job of giving us a more "realistic" graphical pinball experience, but the issues with the Zen originals run far deeper than the graphics.

What I have noticed is that many Zen original tables are first and foremost a video game that just so happens to use pinball-like features and mechanics, but have no real pinball table flow, feature convoluted shots, and employ obtuse rules/modes. Which is fine if that is the intended design direction, but it gets old pretty quick and many of the original tables start to feel the same with just a different skin stretched over it.

The audio callouts are usually poorly done, repetitive, and many times, don't help direct the player in any meaningful manner.

Interestingly, Zen is now going to be doing Original table designs based on Williams pinball IP. I guess we can only wait and see how this goes, but if they can manage to make some tables that feel and play like a modern-day Stern with the charm of 90's era Williams, well, that would be a huge win for Zen (and us), I do also wonder if this signals that they are running low on additional recreations that they can, or want to do.

[Mal]

Originally posted by Whakahoatanga:

Some of the originals they have are mediocre but they also have some really good ones. I don't really get the complaining about their originals. Sure, not all of them are great, but I'd really miss South Park if they would suddenly remove it.

Criticism isn't complaining.

[Pinballwiz45b]

If I were to describe 2023 in one word, I'd say "saturated".

Between 2019 and 2023, we only got 4 tables from Williams, on FX3. By the time FX released in 2023, suddenly we have 26 new tables. Add 11 + 4 M tables on top of that, throughout the year. Of the 41 total newcomers and the 2 returning ones, only 7 of them are Williams.

Table design failures aren't just relegated to Zen. Much of pinball experienced its own faults in games that didn't work out so much. There are quite a few great Zen designs available, just as much as there are great pinball machines out there.

Zen going a more video-game feel is how they've always done it, and that method of game design has been around for longer than you think. The creators of TImeshock went on to create Mario Pinball Land and Metroid Prime Pinball, both great in their own rights, given reviews. Even Pin*Bot and High Speed on the NES have gameplay twists that aren't true to life.

OP's more of a YMMV post, and that's not a bad thing. We'll see what 2024 has for us.

[p1nbal1]

Timeshock Ultra, VPX, seem to have some visual and auditory realism that Zen just doesn’t have.

Recently watched a clip of sonic pinball mania on future pinball, and its just on another level with simulation and sounds as well.

Zen has a certain art direction that is more fantasy and semi-cartoonish than realistic/simulation focused. Even with the Williams tables. Not a lot of reflections, kinda flat metals and plastics. In other words not a lot of shine, highlights, and reflection making things look real.

I would love to see Zen try for full simulation where metal rails, glass, table surface, and plastics get the full power of the hardware instead of animated characters jumping around the table.

Zen should consider working with some of the people behind these other platforms. Or at least spend some more time studying what the other teams are doing.

That Sponge Bob original table looks amazing. Hard to go back to fx after watching it. Might be time to just buy an actual machine.

[Takise]

Originally posted by p1nbal1:

I would love to see Zen try for full simulation where metal rails, glass, table surface, and plastics get the full power of the hardware instead of animated characters jumping around the table.

You beat my post by seconds :)

Let me just remind that I am not touching on the design of the tables here because I think that at least 75% of Zen originals are brilliant designs.

I only care about the visual side. If they offered me visual realism like the guys responsible for Die Hard, then playing I would feel that I was interacting with real machines and my joy would be immeasurable.

Pinball creates what we see while playing, in my opinion lighting is the most important and reflections on individual elements of the table.

Then the colors and realism in reproducing the materials on the table, i.e. shiny metal, shiny plastic.

And all this is additionally emphasized by the prism of glass lying on top.

Originally posted by p1nbal1:

That Sponge Bob original table looks amazing. Hard to go back to fx after watching it.

Its what im talking about...i just cant go back anymore:)

[p1nbal1]

Watched the sponge bob table again. Trying to figure out what makes it so good. The audio is incredible, the ball hitting the ramps, slingshots, sliding down the rails, pop bumpers, hitting the drop targets. If you heard someone playing the game in the next room, you would swear it was a real table. I think Zen might just be missing a bit of audio detail.

[4MIGO]

I agree, the visual style is not as realistic as some vpx releases, but imho they still look more realistic than cartoonish... you can see the Zen style.
:)
The mentioned Spongebob table is rly awesome... if you got the multiball in the VR room Spongebob will visit you in his house, so funny (and creepy after midnight!). :)

I think most people are fine with the visuals overall, but want more customization options... this was discussed several times.

[Dal420]

VPV?
YMMV?
VPX?
What language are you people talking?

[Takise]

Originally posted by Dal420:

VPV?
YMMV?
VPX?
What language are you people talking?

VPW - VPinWorkshop, group of guys making pinball tables for VPX
VPX - Visual Pinball 10, free software with editor to play and design digital pinball tables

YMMV...have no idea what this mean :)))

[Dal420]

Originally posted by Takise:

Originally posted by Dal420:

VPV?
YMMV?
VPX?
What language are you people talking?

VPW - VPinWorkshop, group of guys making pinball tables for VPX
VPX - Visual Pinball 10, free software with editor to play and design digital pinball tables

YMMV...have no idea what this mean :)))

Lol, okay, cheers. I'm behind in the abbreviated pinball lingo.

[MikeFulton]

Originally posted by Takise:

First of all, let me say that this is not a criticism, just my private feeling.

Those things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, criticism is always an expression of the critic's personal feelings about something.

Originally posted by Takise:

Yesterday I played the original table from VPV, Die Hard Trilogy and I realized what I was missing in the Zen originals and I couldn't quite pinpoint it before.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I have no idea what "VPV" is, and I know of no pinball game that has a "Die Hard Trilogy" table - certainly not Pinball FX and since this is a forum for Pinball FX, I am a little confused what you're talking about. I'm not saying you shouldn't be talking about it, but maybe you should give a little context so that everyone can participate in the discussion.

Originally posted by Takise:

I miss the setting that makes me feel like I'm playing real pinball.
I think Zen has created a lot of great original designs that lack a sense of visual realism.

I won't go into detail about specific tables from the past.
But for example, if the latest tables from the M series took on visual realism like Die Hard Trilogy and the cartoon tables visually came closer to Sponge Bobs Bikini Bottom and the futuristic Mars, by the way, one of my favorite tables, went in the direction of Blood Machines... then I would feel that we have dealing with the true evolution of FX.

A table created by a handful of time-constrained amateurs using an old, archaic editor made me feel like I was playing electronic pinball in the 21st century.

Simply on a large screen in 4k at 120hz you get the feeling of playing real pinball and it is a truly breathtaking experience.

The last time I had this was when I played Pro Pinball Timeshock ages ago.

So Zen, why, when you have specialist hardware and software, do you not use the power?

I'm staying true to your Williams series and I'm looking forward to more.

[Takise]

Originally posted by mfulton:

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I have no idea what "VPV" is, and I know of no pinball game that has a "Die Hard Trilogy" table - certainly not Pinball FX and since this is a forum for Pinball FX, I am a little confused what you're talking about. I'm not saying you shouldn't be talking about it, but maybe you should give a little context so that everyone can participate in the discussion.

In my opinion, talking about any topic is permissible as long as it does not break basic rules and does not violate other people's freedom.
Any type of discussion is acceptable in a place where people want to talk and exchange views, regardless of your opinion and point of view.

For example, do you think it's impossible to start a conversation about quantum physics with a random person while visiting a public toilet?

I have no idea why you consider yourself an authority with the right to determine what we are allowed to talk about.

Moreover, if you have no idea what we're talking about, why are you taking part in the discussion... it doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry for the harsh statement, but I don't tolerate arbitrariness and people with the mission of convincing everyone around them to their own point of view.

[CMG]

I for one really like the Zen originals... a lot of them anyway, Some are just OK or pretty MEH, but they offer a lot of real recreations and then some tables that could only be done in digital... sure if I had a choice Id probably take more realistic tables more often but I think its a nice break to be able to do some impossible things inside a pinball cabinet. Its cool!

The die hard game is also awesome... like, you could have it all, why would you want it all to feel the same> You have VPX, you have Zen recreations, you have Zen originals. Room for all I say.

[MikeFulton]

Originally posted by Takise:

In my opinion, talking about any topic is permissible as long as it does not break basic rules and does not violate other people's freedom.
Any type of discussion is acceptable in a place where people want to talk and exchange views, regardless of your opinion and point of view.

For example, do you think it's impossible to start a conversation about quantum physics with a random person while visiting a public toilet?

I have no idea why you consider yourself an authority with the right to determine what we are allowed to talk about.

Moreover, if you have no idea what we're talking about, why are you taking part in the discussion... it doesn't make sense.

I'm sorry for the harsh statement, but I don't tolerate arbitrariness and people with the mission of convincing everyone around them to their own point of view.

I never said you shouldn't be posting about anything. I merely suggested that providing some context would be helpful to some people.

This is a discussion forum for Pinball FX and by default, people reading the posts here will expect them to be talking about Pinball FX, or at least something closely related. That doesn't mean you can't talk about something else, but if you're doing it here, then it's reasonable to presume that you want to communicate with people who are likely to be participating in this forum. With that in mind, I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that you might provide some sort of context when you go off-topic.

Just to be polite, if nothing else.