criticism of the wiring puzzle

[Lou]

for the wiring puzzles, I feel that it could have been done better.

It is obvious, when Shay find the damaged hexi-pal, he comments on its state. Says something about the wiring having come off. OK - so you need to rewire it, so you find some wire and then look at the hexi-pal.

But, how do you rewire it ? On the back of the hexi-pal, there are no numbers or symbols on the terminals. 6 terminals, that can be hooked up in a myriad of ways. When I saw it, I figured that the solution would be to make a particular shape. Triangle, star, square, or something, and that the solution would be visible somewhere. Which was wrong.

The solution, is to put the hexi-pal into the charger, and see that the blue wire is connected to two symbols, the yellow to two other symbols, and the red to two other symbols. From that, you can determine the identity of each terminal.
Then, to determine the wiring solution, you have to look at the environment carefully.

I don't feel that putting it in the charger, makes all that much sense, to identify the symbols. You know it's damaged and not wired up correctly, so why should you expect any useful information to be had from putting it in the charger ?

I don't feel that the connection betwen the symbols, and the clues in the environment is sufficient to establish the idea that the solution can be found in the environment.

Instead, if the hexi-pal terminals had symbols on them, and if Shay commented on those symbols, it more readily establishes the idea of "I need to look for these symbols to work out how to wire up the hexi-pal".

For Vella's hexi-pal, I had to resort to switching to Shay, rewiring his hexi-pal till it was right, then switching back to Vella. Vella's hexi-pal had a big line on the back, which I had initially thought might relate to some of the things I could see on the environment. It didn't.

In the later puzzles, when reconfiguration of the hexi-pals was necessary, the lack of visual reference to which terminal was which, also made obtaining the solutions more difficult.

so:

Hexi-pal is damaged, gives me the thought "I need to rewire this".
Looking at the damaged hexi-pal, blank terminals with no labels, gives me the thought "I have to wire them up in a particular shape".
I saw the clues, but did not connect them with the puzzle, because the clues didn't look like anything that might be a wiring diagram.

basically:

I was looking for clues to a wiring diagram to link up the blank terminals, when the solution is to look for wiring instructions to link up labelled terminals that you have to work out the labels for, before you are able to recognise the clues to the wiring solution.


It may have helped if there were more spoken thoughts by the characters too.

[Elaine Marley]

If I remember right, if you use the spoon on the hexipal it tells you that he thinks it needs charging, which is a good clue that you should look for a charging station for it, but yeah, the idea of charging it before wiring it correctly is counter-intuitive, and identifying the correct feature in the cave as the charging station is not immediate either, it doesn't help that if you click on it to inspect it (again, if I'm remembering right) Shay doesn't know what it is.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Elaine Marley:

If I remember right, if you use the spoon on the hexipal it tells you that he thinks it needs charging.

well, using the spoon doesn't immediately spring to mind either, lol.

Although, to be fair, I went into part 2 cold, not having repeated part 1, so I have forgotten if you're given the impression that the spoon is a knowledgeable buddy that can help in varied situations.


I think my points can be reduced to:

Unlabelled terminals go best with diagram clues.
Labelled terminals go best with instruction clues.

Game gives you unlabelled terminals, and instruction clues.

Which makes connecting the clues with the puzzle more difficult, for no real reason. I think this might be what Tvtropes calls "fake difficulty".

[muted]

yup.. and something else, when you wire in the wrong order or at least connecting order, he will tell you that you probably need to wire in a certain order... why not just make it that way instead of hinting the player to modify it.


Vella's robot puzzle was much easier and made a lot more sense.

There's a few puzzle I really didn't appreciate, I think I will make a list, I just think they are poorly designed.

[ike]

Yes, a critical piece to the puzzle in figuring out you need to charge it with the wires attached.

If you go around and give the broken bot to people on Shay's part of the game, the girls up at Meriloft would say the bot needs to be wired and power.

Also if you just click around in the Deadeye Pyramid on all the stuff that you can, Alex would say the thing on the left is a charging station.

After you piece those two clues together and place the randomly wired broken bot into the charging station, you'll realize you need to find the symbols, which are associated to how you wire the bot.

[Mendacious Calamity]

I;m sorry but I fail to see the problem. I mean, you're basically just saying "I didn't think it was obvious".

Well, it wouldn't be much of puzzle game if it was, would it?

It also wasn't that obscure: explore the environment and you'll get all the clues about how to put it all together. Once i'd examined the recharger, and the clue about the lights, it was simple.

I didn't even ask the spoon until I'd already worked out that the Hexi fit into the glowing port. Why'd I try it in the glowing port? Well, why not? It seemed like it *might* fit, and it did.

But I could also have asked the spoon, and looked around, and noticed that this glowing thing was a recharger. And my hexi needed recharging.

[Curious Duck]

The spoon also mentions it needs recharging.

[Mendacious Calamity]

Originally posted by ike:

Yes, a critical piece to the puzzle in figuring out you need to charge it with the wires attached.

If you go around and give the broken bot to people on Shay's part of the game, the girls up at Meriloft would say the bot needs to be wired and power.

Also if you just click around in the Deadeye Pyramid on all the stuff that you can, Alex would say the thing on the left is a charging station.

After you piece those two clues together and place the randomly wired broken bot into the charging station, you'll realize you need to find the symbols, which are associated to how you wire the bot.

Apparently that's all far too much like hard work for some gamers.

:(

[Mendacious Calamity]

Originally posted by Lou:

I don't feel that the connection betwen the symbols, and the clues in the environment is sufficient to establish the idea that the solution can be found in the environment.

So, when Shay says "If only I was on my own ship I'd probably be able to work this out!" it didn't IMMEDIATELY make you switch to Vella and explore the ship looking for clues?

On Shay's ship Vella will find something that shows you EXACTLY what lights you need to see. Switch back to Shay, work out which terminal is which light, wire it up and you're done.

Your whole post is just "why couldn't they make this a much less interesting puzzle to solve for people like me who need it all spelled out waaaaaay more clearly?"

[Auburok]

Originally posted by DigitalInvestor:

Originally posted by Lou:

I don't feel that the connection betwen the symbols, and the clues in the environment is sufficient to establish the idea that the solution can be found in the environment.

So, when Shay says "If only I was on my own ship I'd probably be able to work this out!" it didn't IMMEDIATELY make you switch to Vella and explore the ship looking for clues?

On Shay's ship Vella will find something that shows you EXACTLY what lights you need to see. Switch back to Shay, work out which terminal is which light, wire it up and you're done.

Your whole post is just "why couldn't they make this a much less interesting puzzle to solve for people like me who need it all spelled out waaaaaay more clearly?"

Dialog can be broken by doing other actions. You can't be certain that every player will get all the clues they need if it's not presented in a manner that they can't miss, such as the environment of the character that's actually trying to solve the puzzle. Shay's remark about treating his parents like computers was skipped in my game - I only realized it was once I saw someone else play the game. Kind of important, considering that's the singular moment that Shay references the hackney "they weren't really computers" plot hole.

With your rather condescending remarks aside, not everyone's played an adventure game where there's some 4th wall breaking. Not everyone's played Day of the Tentacle. Considering the majority of the game up until that point is completed by characters using their inventory/environment on their own, it's not really that far fetched for someone to get confused why one character in another part of the world without any method of communication would be in a position to advance the other character's plot point.

[Mendacious Calamity]

Originally posted by Auburok:

Originally posted by DigitalInvestor:

So, when Shay says "If only I was on my own ship I'd probably be able to work this out!" it didn't IMMEDIATELY make you switch to Vella and explore the ship looking for clues?

On Shay's ship Vella will find something that shows you EXACTLY what lights you need to see. Switch back to Shay, work out which terminal is which light, wire it up and you're done.

Your whole post is just "why couldn't they make this a much less interesting puzzle to solve for people like me who need it all spelled out waaaaaay more clearly?"

Dialog can be broken by doing other actions. You can't be certain that every player will get all the clues they need if it's not presented in a manner that they can't miss, such as the environment of the character that's actually trying to solve the puzzle. Shay's remark about treating his parents like computers was skipped in my game - I only realized it was once I saw someone else play the game. Kind of important, considering that's the singular moment that Shay references the hackney "they weren't really computers" plot hole.

With your rather condescending remarks aside, not everyone's played an adventure game where there's some 4th wall breaking. Not everyone's played Day of the Tentacle. Considering the majority of the game up until that point is completed by characters using their inventory/environment on their own, it's not really that far fetched for someone to get confused why one character in another part of the world without any method of communication would be in a position to advance the other character's plot point.

I totally agree. I actually think it's a little incongruous as a gameplay mechanic, because Shay can't get to his ship, so how's he managed to remember the photo?

I do agree.

But, in terms of "how was I supposed to know that?" - because Shay tells you!

"If only I could explore my own ship, I might remember how to wire this guy up" (or something).

If you got this line and DIDN'T work out you could explore the ship as Vella, well... sorry man. I think you're clutching at straws to take this puzzle apart and call it objectively rubbish. It was great, I heartily enjoyed working it out piece by piece.

BTW what does Shay's remark about treating his parents like computers have to do with this puzzle? It's just a line of dialogue that refers to a plot point in passing, it's not important in general unless you're completely devoid of imagination and need every last thing spelled out to you.

This puzzle is, IMO, easy to work out once you start to put the pieces together.

[Auburok]

Originally posted by DigitalInvestor:

BTW what does Shay's remark about treating his parents like computers have to do with this puzzle? It's just a line of dialogue that refers to a plot point in passing, it's not important in general unless you're completely devoid of imagination and need every last thing spelled out to you.

You're misunderstanding. I said that bit of dialog didn't play - it's a problem in the game that some bits of dialog are delayed, and if you don't have subtitles on, you're unknowingly skipping dialog. Much is the case when a character says something after failing a puzzle as clicking will skip it if you're not expecting a new string of dialog telling you what to do. If someone fails it once and accidentally skips the help dialog because they didn't expect it, they could feel totally in the dark until they blindly try a few times again to get the dialog to trigger, which may or may not happen if the player is hopelessly lost and isn't really into the idea of fumbling at a puzzle with no clue. This leaves your "because Shay tells you!" as a useless bit of information until after the fact.

Originally posted by DigitalInvestor:

If you got this line and DIDN'T work out you could explore the ship as Vella, well... sorry man. I think you're clutching at straws to take this puzzle apart and call it objectively rubbish. It was great, I heartily enjoyed working it out piece by piece.

I didn't say I didn't get it. I said it's absolutely unfair to expect that the line wasn't interrupted or unnoticed for some people. It's not a very well designed puzzle, and there's no straws to clutch at since they're handing you a whole bale of reasons why it's poorly designed. If they wanted to convey Shay might remember an obscure pattern from a photo of parents he really didn't consider human until moments prior, in a room he'd never been in recently or possibly ever, they could have done a much better job. Even just putting the photo in the ship's scattered debris would have been less graspy. Shay isn't getting a read out from Vella, he's not being fed objects from a time machine or teleporter. He's literally being instilled by meta knowledge that, before this act, wasn't something he did (likewise for Vella learning Mr. Huggy's name).

Originally posted by DigitalInvestor:

This puzzle is, IMO, easy to work out once you start to put the pieces together.

Your opinion really isn't some sort of immunity bearing olive branch for the weaknesses in design, considering how the forums are split about how a lot of the new puzzles are complex in lazy fashions. It's a common complaint. Check the store page reviews.

[SoggyHankHill]

Did anyone else spend WAY too long trying combinations on Shay's hexipal by looking at the broken wires hanging off the terminals? I really thought thats what the game was trying to hint at.

I didnt even realize I COULD put the hexipal in that charging station either, I just assumed since diamond=/=hexagon that he wouldnt fit. I made that puzzle a lot harder by overthinking it, I guess?

[Auburok]

Originally posted by Wetbutts:

Did anyone else spend WAY too long trying combinations on Shay's hexipal by looking at the broken wires hanging off the terminals? I really thought thats what the game was trying to hint at.

I didnt even realize I COULD put the hexipal in that charging station either, I just assumed since diamond=/=hexagon that he wouldnt fit. I made that puzzle a lot harder by overthinking it, I guess?

I actually thought the wiring left on the terminals was important, too! Red herring? I don't understand why they'd put one there, though, especially since hexipals have a limited amount of wiring, right? Not much room for faulty wiring since they don't move at all.

[Lou]

When I played it, Shay didn't mention at all, that "this would be easier if I was on my ship", when wiring up the hexi-pal for the first time.


I found an earlier save from the beginning of act 2. Turns out, it's possible to complete the game, without ever being shown that the terminals on the hexi-pals have symbols.

what I did there, was, once Shay got the wire, I wired up the hexipal, and Shay mentioned something about "this wire goes..." and I followed what his instruction seemed to be telling me. He said something about "i hope order doesn't matter", so I changed the order that I made the wires in. He said something about direction, so I reversed them.

I put it in the charger. It charged up first time. No indication that the terminals have associated symbols.

Vella's hexipal, with the hazard pattern on it. Turns out, the wiring pattern can be determined from the burn marks. That was the line I saw the first time around, that I didn't recognise as a clue.

The harp pattern, I got right the first time, by reusing a diagram I had written down. If there is randomisation in the puzzle, it must be set in stone pretty early.

So from that save, I was never shown that the terminals have associated symbols.



So. for the puzzle. There's still only one way to find out, that the terminals have associated symbols, which is to put the hexi-pal in the charger when it is wired up wrongly. If you put the hexipal in the charger without it being wired at all, you get an error symbol, that doesn't relate to anything else you see. Asking people about stuff doesn't tell you anything. Looking at the clue picture doesn't help, because until you put it in the charger, you lack the information necessary to realise that the stuff you see in the background relates to anything, as opposed to being abstract wibblywoo wallpaper.


There are 4 patterns that do something:
1. The repair pattern, necessary to fix Alex's ship
2. The harp pattern, necessary for both Vella and Shay
3. The hazard pattern, necessary for Shay
4. The dancing pattern, not really necessary.

There's a lot more than 4 ways to wire the things up, making it unlikely to solve by trial and error.

So, for the puzzle, there's a single point where something must be done, in order to advance, and it's possible to miss that point. If you follow what Shay is telling you, it's possible to put the hexi-pal in the charger, correctly wired up, without ever learning that the terminals have symbols. If you listen to what Shay is telling you, then, he says "this isn't right", when the hexi-pal isn't wired up right, so why would you put it in the charger, when Shay's telling you it's wired up wrongly ?

If, having correctly put the hexi-pal in the charger, then, once it's time to rewire it to the harp pattern, it's already fully charged, why would you put it back in the charger?

There's three ways to put the hexi-pal in the charger.
1. Completely unwired - do this, you get no information about the terminal symbols
2. Wired up correctly by chance/following Shay's feedback - again, no information about the symbols
3. Wired up wrongly, deliberately ignoring Shay's comments that it's not right - this is the only way to reveal that the terminals have symbols, which then reveals the clue to the solution.

When you need to rewire it to a new pattern, then.
1. You arrived at this point not having known there were symbols - why would you think to put the hexipal in the charger again? it's already charged. How do you relate the clue to what you know about the hexipal wiring ?
2. You arrived at this point knowing there are symbols, well, now you can use that clue to rewire the thing.


So, I still think that the puzzle isn't as good as it should be.

The solution is only found through ignoring what Shay tells you.

All it needs, is a comment, by Shay, about how when he wired up hexi-pals, the instructions used symbols to tell you which wire went where. It could even be the one where he says "this would be easier if I was on my ship".

The NPCs saying different things might also help.



And, people learn in different ways. Visual, verbal, trial&error, for example.

[ike]

If you've solved the first wiring puzzle by pure luck on the first wiring attempt, then yes it'd be even harder to piece together the wiring puzzles in the finale. Since you would not have known that the charging station would have given symbols. At that point you'll be just using all the items on everything you can interact with.

Originally posted by Lou:

So. for the puzzle. There's still only one way to find out, that the terminals have associated symbols, which is to put the hexi-pal in the charger when it is wired up wrongly. If you put the hexipal in the charger without it being wired at all, you get an error symbol, that doesn't relate to anything else you see. Asking people about stuff doesn't tell you anything. Looking at the clue picture doesn't help, because until you put it in the charger, you lack the information necessary to realise that the stuff you see in the background relates to anything, as opposed to being abstract wibblywoo wallpaper.

When I encountered it, I didn't even have the wires to begin with. I just placed the bot into the recharging station and realized it wasn't working, as indicated by the error message. I knew I needed to add something to the bot to make it work.

As for the clues for the first wire puzzle, like I said there are a few on Meriloft.
I already knew I needed to wire up the bot after having so many people tell me that I needed to rewire it, and charge it.

But yes, I've seen a few people not realize the wired charging step of the puzzle. They might be assuming that wiring it up would just be the end of the puzzle, and looking for instructions to wire missing the crucial step in the puzzle.
However, once they've placed the bot on the charging station without wires. All of the players I've observed have attempted to put wires onto the bot afterwards to try again...
Well except for one player, she thought she'd placed the wires on while charging, but didn't realized it wasn't connected. So, she didn't try again.

The most direct clue is probably the ones from the girls in Meriloft, telling you to wire it AND plug it in.
While all the other clues keep repeating, wire or power.

the dialog with the girls

• Shay:'Anyone here know how to fix robots?'
  
• M'ggie:'Yeah, with wires and stuff'
  
• Rocky:'Is it plugged in? Electric stuff needs to be plugged in.'

Other clues are just fragments of it
• Shay:'Do you know how to revitalize a dead robot?'
  
• Gus:'Uh, I'd probably give it some juice'

• Shay:'How about this little guy, would he help?'
  
• Alex:'He is probably exactly what we need, but it looks like he needs some re-wiring.'

• Shay:'Can you fix him, Spoon?'
  
• Spoon:'I think he needs a recharging, sir.'

After interacting with the charging station

• Shay:'How does this strange device work?'
  
• Alex:'That's for charging up my Diamond Doogs.'