Mini Exploders need another nerf

[Dovahkick]

I'm trying to do Haz 5 Azure Weald on Hardcore mode, and from the many times I died, the cause is due to the Mini Exploders. These things got nerfed already, but I think they could need another nerf.

They have more health than grunts, enough at least to survive one single shot from a Warthog at point blank, while grunts get one-tapped (on stage 1 at level 1). There's very few weapons that are practical against them in early stages, the only ones I tried and of which I find to be useful against them are the Throwing Axes thanks to their knockback, the Voltaic Shock Fences since they serve as area denial and work great against pursuers, the Wave Cooker because of its large AoE and ability to ignore terrain, Firefly/Viper drones since they can harass bugs, and the Seismic Repulsor since it knocks bugs away. The Autocannon can work too, but it locks on an angle, so it's not as practical.

They are extremely quick, they're the most quickest bugs in the entire game, so digging as getaway is not as viable unless you've got the right weapons to deter/repel them, or enough digging speed to outrun them. Combined with their large numbers during swarms, it makes them the biggest threat so far, and they sure do put a lot of pressure on you. They have a very slight delay before exploding, just like regular exploders, but the delay is a lot shorter, so it's not even worth trying to bait them into self-detonating, you're better off running away than taking the risk of baiting them.

I'd say, they mostly need a nerf to their health, they're a little tough for small bugs, it should probably be on par with red grunts. They can remain the quickest bugs in the whole game, because that's part of their gimmick, but it's still really fast as of right now.

[Neomare]

Is it really a good idea to balance general content based on a feedback from a hardcore anomaly though?

If they get a bit more nerfed they will be mostly ignorable in normal runs and just die in the chaos. Then you have people complaining all the enemies all the content everything is all the same. At worst It already feels like they do not do anything. you get hit a bit.. you heal it up... it is way to easy on hazard 5.


I am a strong proponent that these should come in bigger numbers with more health and the player should anticipate them and be ready to jump away to get some speed while kiting and killing them.

if not then both the jump membranes and these new enemies are just cosmetics at best.


On other hand i find the hardcore anomaly just absurd i am to old for this stuff but I am happy for those who enjoy it :D.

However.

If Azure Weald Hardcore is nearly impossible because of these enemies they could just add a mutator to the anomaly instead. Now we know they have the tech for it.

[ZeppMan217]

Everything is easy on normal H5 with all the meta unlocks though.

I think the problem with Mini Exploders is that there's actual no exploding part. They only deal damage to the player, not other bugs or terrain. For all intents and purposes, they might as well be recolored regular bugs.

[Winter]

Originally posted by Dovahkick:

I'm trying to do Haz 5 Azure Weald on Hardcore mode, and from the many times I died, the cause is due to the Mini Exploders. These things got nerfed already, but I think they could need another nerf.

They have more health than grunts, enough at least to survive one single shot from a Warthog at point blank, while grunts get one-tapped (on stage 1 at level 1). There's very few weapons that are practical against them in early stages, the only ones I tried and of which I find to be useful against them are the Throwing Axes thanks to their knockback, the Voltaic Shock Fences since they serve as area denial and work great against pursuers, the Wave Cooker because of its large AoE and ability to ignore terrain, Firefly/Viper drones since they can harass bugs, and the Seismic Repulsor since it knocks bugs away. The Autocannon can work too, but it locks on an angle, so it's not as practical.

They are extremely quick, they're the most quickest bugs in the entire game, so digging as getaway is not as viable unless you've got the right weapons to deter/repel them, or enough digging speed to outrun them. Combined with their large numbers during swarms, it makes them the biggest threat so far, and they sure do put a lot of pressure on you. They have a very slight delay before exploding, just like regular exploders, but the delay is a lot shorter, so it's not even worth trying to bait them into self-detonating, you're better off running away than taking the risk of baiting them.

I'd say, they mostly need a nerf to their health, they're a little tough for small bugs, it should probably be on par with red grunts. They can remain the quickest bugs in the whole game, because that's part of their gimmick, but it's still really fast as of right now.

I don't have an issue with the mini sploders, they can be a pain but can be dealt with and they don't kill the fun of a run most of the time. U know when you'll have to deal with em, so I try and take a few upgrades to deal with em, and use the jump pads. I enjoy the challenge, if one thing maybe they could spawn a few less at a once but still not too bad as it is now.

[Dovahkick]

Originally posted by Winter:

Originally posted by Dovahkick:

I'm trying to do Haz 5 Azure Weald on Hardcore mode, and from the many times I died, the cause is due to the Mini Exploders. These things got nerfed already, but I think they could need another nerf.

They have more health than grunts, enough at least to survive one single shot from a Warthog at point blank, while grunts get one-tapped (on stage 1 at level 1). There's very few weapons that are practical against them in early stages, the only ones I tried and of which I find to be useful against them are the Throwing Axes thanks to their knockback, the Voltaic Shock Fences since they serve as area denial and work great against pursuers, the Wave Cooker because of its large AoE and ability to ignore terrain, Firefly/Viper drones since they can harass bugs, and the Seismic Repulsor since it knocks bugs away. The Autocannon can work too, but it locks on an angle, so it's not as practical.

They are extremely quick, they're the most quickest bugs in the entire game, so digging as getaway is not as viable unless you've got the right weapons to deter/repel them, or enough digging speed to outrun them. Combined with their large numbers during swarms, it makes them the biggest threat so far, and they sure do put a lot of pressure on you. They have a very slight delay before exploding, just like regular exploders, but the delay is a lot shorter, so it's not even worth trying to bait them into self-detonating, you're better off running away than taking the risk of baiting them.

I'd say, they mostly need a nerf to their health, they're a little tough for small bugs, it should probably be on par with red grunts. They can remain the quickest bugs in the whole game, because that's part of their gimmick, but it's still really fast as of right now.

I don't have an issue with the mini sploders, they can be a pain but can be dealt with and they don't kill the fun of a run most of the time. U know when you'll have to deal with em, so I try and take a few upgrades to deal with em, and use the jump pads. I enjoy the challenge, if one thing maybe they could spawn a few less at a once but still not too bad as it is now.

The jump pads are great getaways, but they're not scattered all around the place. Sometimes they're clustered equally around the map, sometimes they're all crammed in one spot, so you can't rely on them all the time due to the bugs creating an entire mass if you don't deal with them, which eventually may cause them to block the access to the jump pad you jumped off of if you use it too often.

The jump pads are good as they are IMO, but I shouldn't have to absolutely rely on them in order to flee from a swarm of mini exploders.
But what about the other biomes in Mutator Madness? If you have the mini exploder mutator, you don't have the jump pads to get away from them, so unless you're a god at timing their explosion, you're gonna have to tank them a lot without proper mobility upgrades, or strong AoE weapons.

[Neomare]

Originally posted by Dovahkick:

Originally posted by Winter:

I don't have an issue with the mini sploders, they can be a pain but can be dealt with and they don't kill the fun of a run most of the time. U know when you'll have to deal with em, so I try and take a few upgrades to deal with em, and use the jump pads. I enjoy the challenge, if one thing maybe they could spawn a few less at a once but still not too bad as it is now.

The jump pads are great getaways, but they're not scattered all around the place. Sometimes they're clustered equally around the map, sometimes they're all crammed in one spot, so you can't rely on them all the time due to the bugs creating an entire mass if you don't deal with them, which eventually may cause them to block the access to the jump pad you jumped off of if you use it too often.

The jump pads are good as they are IMO, but I shouldn't have to absolutely rely on them in order to flee from a swarm of mini exploders.
But what about the other biomes in Mutator Madness? If you have the mini exploder mutator, you don't have the jump pads to get away from them, so unless you're a god at timing their explosion, you're gonna have to tank them a lot without proper mobility upgrades, or strong AoE weapons.

Again though should the game be balanced for Mutator Madness or for general Hazard 5.

If the expectation is that it all should somehow be balanced I just imagine this will not be possible. With every special mode they add it will be harder and harder to balance things.. i rather have them add modes at will and not worry to much about balance in there... mutator madness is very chaotic and Extra RNG anyway. What happens happens right?

I think the best aproach we can have as player is to expect for the core of the game to be balanced while anomalies can be whatever crazy things happen, ranging from way to easy to almost unbeatable.


So while your arguments are on point about these modes being unbalanced I do not think it is a good idea to even try to balance them.

[Winter]

We gotta remember how recently this game came out, it'll take some tweaks but as with most good EA games, balance comes in time along with new content. Gotta give em time to work. Besides, if there's a mode you don't like just skip it. I personally don't like the original DRG's point extraction, so I avoid it as much as possible. Same with some of the OC's, I don't like em so I don't use em. Really, I'm sure this game will change ALOT before 1.0 release.

[Yasahi]

Originally posted by ZeppMan217:

Everything is easy on normal H5 with all the meta unlocks though.

I think the problem with Mini Exploders is that there's actual no exploding part. They only deal damage to the player, not other bugs or terrain. For all intents and purposes, they might as well be recolored regular bugs.

They do deal damage to other bugs and terrain. The explosion radius is very small, pretty much as big as the bug itself so they need to be stacked up and hugging the "target" to deal damage. But you can cause chain reactions and kill even mini elites that are in the mix just by popping some.

[CopperBack]

Yeah I've not tested it directly but they do seem a lot like the regular exploders in that the explosion is also tied to your movement speed. Faster means you have to get closer to bait the boom.

This tied in with their high speed baseline and bugs increased speed when off screen make them appear very fast and threatening.

But so long as your running away and have a track they don't make contact until you stop or usually self explode when getting close... ironically getting more speed and running in fear faster make the scenario more deadly like a panic reaction in a horror movie.

In this case mining speed would be a better solution than going movement speed.

[Metro]

I think they're in a good place right now. Only thing I would entertain as the devs is maybe a slight nerf to the number that spawn on swarms.

[Winter]

Originally posted by Metro:

I think they're in a good place right now. Only thing I would entertain as the devs is maybe a slight nerf to the number that spawn on swarms.

I like that idea for a little change to the small boomers, or a slight reduction in their movement speed if they wanted to keep the spawn rates the same.
Driller and/or anything with cold/slow/knock back works great against em. Tripple beam ice cannon is clutch, or cyro nades especially with the OC that splits them into 3 smaller ones.

[Dovahkick]

Originally posted by Winter:

Originally posted by Metro:

I think they're in a good place right now. Only thing I would entertain as the devs is maybe a slight nerf to the number that spawn on swarms.

I like that idea for a little change to the small boomers, or a slight reduction in their movement speed if they wanted to keep the spawn rates the same.
Driller and/or anything with cold/slow/knock back works great against em. Tripple beam ice cannon is clutch, or cyro nades especially with the OC that splits them into 3 smaller ones.

Yeah, either lower their speed a bit (but keep them fast nonetheless), or lower their spawn rate a bit, or lower their max health a bit. IMO they are very oppressive whenever a wave triggers.

Cold weapons are great too for dealing against them, but you shouldn't try to make any contact with them whatsoever, even if they're frozen, because you don't know if you're going to shoot them by accident and cause them to blow up. No dwarf starts the game with a weapon that inflicts cold, you gotta get at least one overclock to get a "Slow" effect or a "Cold" tag, but you should also try to speedrun lvl 5 to get yourself a good enough weapon.

[Pulse]

Yeah it looks like they have learned nothing and are continuing to release content without playtesting it

[InterWill]

The point of Azure Weald was to make the swarms feel different from the other biomes. You should be encouraged to look at the stage timer and plan ahead for the next incoming swarm. The small exploders are a part of that and certainly help in making us take the swarms more seriously.

If I was a part of the dev team, I wouldn’t rush to nerf the exploders more at this point. I would let things kinda settle in. Players have complained about all new enemies that has been introduced and then learned to adapt/play around them.

They might end up needing some tweaks anyway, but slight feeling of desperation and panic when they arrive is by design and not an accident.

[Dovahkick]

Originally posted by InterWill:

The point of Azure Weald was to make the swarms feel different from the other biomes. You should be encouraged to look at the stage timer and plan ahead for the next incoming swarm. The small exploders are a part of that and certainly help in making us take the swarms more seriously.

That's something I actually had noticed, and managed to take note of in my head. They only spawn during waves, never in-between. But having so many of them at stage 1 leads me to repeated deaths over and over again in Hardcore mode...I mean, it's Hardcore mode after all, it's hardcore for a reason.

But somehow I have a lot more trouble with the Azure Weald, than even the Salt Pits and its Qu'Ronar Younglings since at least you can dodge them by predicting their trajectory. Mini exploders are a different thing, and they're harder to deal with: they charge at you faster than any other bug, so you're forced to pick specific weapons in order to knock them away, freeze them, or deter them. I've also learnt to dig tunnels all while avoiding making holes for other bugs to slither in, so that I can create my own temporary choke point, and allow myself to focus fire on the mini exploders.

But even then I still haven't managed to reach stage 4. The rare occasions I got to reach stage 3 were with Tinkerer, Strong Armed, Foreman, or Classic.

[Wheredoyoukeepthechocolate?]

Originally posted by InterWill:

The point of Azure Weald was to make the swarms feel different from the other biomes. You should be encouraged to look at the stage timer and plan ahead for the next incoming swarm. The small exploders are a part of that and certainly help in making us take the swarms more seriously.

If I was a part of the dev team, I wouldn’t rush to nerf the exploders more at this point. I would let things kinda settle in. Players have complained about all new enemies that has been introduced and then learned to adapt/play around them.

They might end up needing some tweaks anyway, but slight feeling of desperation and panic when they arrive is by design and not an accident.

I'm really surprised at how many players seem to have not read the patch notes where it says the swarms will be more intense on azure weald but the in-between periods will be calmer. Also, they pattern the devs have established is that the newer biomes are supposed to be progressively harder, so it shouldn't be any surprise that azure weald is a bigger challenge.

I'm fine with the mini exploders as they are, but if I had to nerf them, I'd go with a slight health nerf. That way, you'd still get those moments of desperation as the swarm bears down on you, but there will be fewer moments where you're running away from one bug for multiple seconds before you're finally able to wear it down. I think most of the frustration from players comes from how inevitable damage from the mini exploders can feel. This would hopefully reduce those feel-bad moments.