Is the flare gun necessary?

[Gorfinhofin]

I'm trying to complete the game while collecting the absolute minimum in terms of equipment, and the only thing I'm not sure about right now is the flare gun. Is it required to beat the game? The only thing I can think of that might require it is the mantra.exe mural. Has anyone tried scanning it without lighting up the room?

EDIT: Aha. Flares are needed to get the ankh jewel in the Twin Labyrinths. Still curious about mantra.exe, though.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

There was an image for all the items you absolutely need for a low% playthrough, but I forgot the link. I reuploaded it here. http://imgur.com/HIlDcct So yeah, it seems you need flares. You should check if you didn't get something you need, or got anything else you don't need.

[Hidden Distance]

Yep, you need the room to be lit up in order to scan the mural containing mantra.exe.

On an aside, you *could* skip the flares in version 1.0 of the game for that puzzle specifically by utilizing a glitch that allows you to store multiple copies of Lemeza in a store... by doing so, you can actually purchase multiple copies of the ankh jewel in the chamber of birth secret shop - at which point, you can skip having to do the puzzle to get the Twin Labyrinth's ankh jewel.

You would still need the flares for mantra.exe though, so unless there's some way to start the fight with Ma' without doing the mantras, it would definitely seem as though it's a required item.

[DeRockProject (jongyon7192p)]

WOAH Is this is that glitch used in any speedrun? Ankh dupe?

[Dentorhedge]

About that image-- why do you need caltrops? Also, how do you trigger the hand on the Tower of Ruin (Babel) without the earth spears?

The Chain Whip and Flail Whip are defiently not required items.

[Gorfinhofin]

Neat. Thanks guys! Thanks for that image too. I wouldn't have remembered the chakrams being necessary. Though I do have the same questions as Dentorhedge.

[Hidden Distance]

Originally posted by DeRockProject (jongyon7192p):

WOAH Is this is that glitch used in any speedrun? Ankh dupe?

Not as of yet. Problem with using the glitch in that particular fashion is that it does take some amount of time to set up (not a huge amount) but it also requires that you actually PAY for all of the ankh jewel duplicates that you buy - so if you buy three, you're shelling out 450 gold. Gathering that kind of cash takes time as well, and as it turns out - quite a bit more than actually just solving the puzzles and getting the ankh jewels the intended way.

The glitch has some other uses - like you can store a copy of lemeza in a shop with weights, and then buy weights from that shop while you're elsewhere in the ruins, but as of yet I (and others) haven't found a practical use for it. Pretty cool though!

Originally posted by Dentorhedge:

About that image-- why do you need caltrops? Also, how do you trigger the hand on the Tower of Ruin (Babel) without the earth spears?

The Chain Whip and Flail Whip are defiently not required items.

Well, if you have caltrops you can skip the upward water current puzzle in the gate of illusion. This means that you get to skip getting the treasures/anchor, as well as the pepper. In other words, if you get the caltrops, you can skip getting one other item.

With regard to the earth spears, you can use the lamp of time to glitch through the wall to the room above Viy's boss chamber, so you never have to climb down the tower of ruin area where the earth spears are required, hence why they're not up there.

[Gorfinhofin]

Originally posted by Hidden Distance:

Well, if you have caltrops you can skip the upward water current puzzle in the gate of illusion. This means that you get to skip getting the treasures/anchor, as well as the pepper. In other words, if you get the caltrops, you can skip getting one other item.

I managed to get the skeleton to knock me into the water, so no caltrops needed there. It took a long time for him to cooperate, though.

However, there's also the room contaning the ankh jewel in the Tower of Ruin, which requires you to break a block from above in order to access it, if I'm not mistaken. Is there another way in that I'm missing, or do you need spears/caltrops for it? Or can you get bombs by that point? Man, this game is complicated.

[Hidden Distance]

Originally posted by Gorfinhofin:

Originally posted by Hidden Distance:

Well, if you have caltrops you can skip the upward water current puzzle in the gate of illusion. This means that you get to skip getting the treasures/anchor, as well as the pepper. In other words, if you get the caltrops, you can skip getting one other item.

I managed to get the skeleton to knock me into the water, so no caltrops needed there. It took a long time for him to cooperate, though.

However, there's also the room contaning the ankh jewel in the Tower of Ruin, which requires you to break a block from above in order to access it, if I'm not mistaken. Is there another way in that I'm missing, or do you need spears/caltrops for it? Or can you get bombs by that point? Man, this game is complicated.

Interesting. Yeah, you definitely could use the skeleton there. Can't remember if there was anything else they would be useful for... I'd never investigated the low% stuff myself because then I think people would assume I was considering doing it. Which I'm not.

You can definitely get the bombs prior to getting the tower of ruin ankh jewel - we do in the current iteration of the any% speedrun.

[Gorfinhofin]

Well, now without the caltrops or the spears I can't open the secret entrance to the Tower of the Goddess, meaning I can't get the bombs and lamp of time. So I need to get SOMETHING in order to progress. I could get the caltrops and go through the Tower of the Goddess, but I feel like they're too useful elsewhere and not in spirit of the challenge. Or I could get the rolling shuriken instead. They're pretty useless elsewhere, but they're also one of the most optional items in the game... So I think I'm going to grab the spears and fight Viy the intended way. What are other people's opinions on this?
Also, I have yet to find a need for the boots.

[Dentorhedge]

The spears are required to unlock Viy and also allow you to use the tower shortcut, so there is no need for the caltrops or the rolling shuriken. I did not think to use the skeleton.... so next time I will skip the anchor. I just have Tiamat left and I am not dropping this run until Mother falls!

[bobslej]

What is your strategy for Tiamat? I am almost there too, and I don't think it's possible to get enough bombs and flares to kill her.

[Dentorhedge]

... I honestly have no idea. MAYBE the whip can barely touch her chin with a perfect jump, but I need to bypass her kids first.

[bobslej]

I've just defeated all of them, gonna try different strategies and post results. If that helps, I've used lamp of time on: the bull, the gargoyle-like monster, the lion, the flying dude below sacred orb room (to reach top platform and spam chakrams and bombs from there, using angel shield to protect from green whirl) and for the last child.

@edit
It seems you can sometimes reach her with whip, although only one hit per double jump. Don't know if I will do it, sounds insanely difficult to defeat her with 32 hp and basic whip. That's 130 whip hits and I can survive mere 2-3 hits. Flare gun will help a bit, but it will be still about 100 double jump whip hits without taking damage.

[Dentorhedge]

Thank you Omeghamatt!