Understanding Baphomet

[Dentorhedge]

I realized I do not fully understand the Baphomet's Ankh puzzle, and I want to fully understand LM before playing LM 2-- unless this is the only puzzle in the that boils down to Guess & Check.
I doubt that, since I finally learned about how the Hell Temple unlock should make sense, and about how Taking a Knee should make sense.

So, just to be sure-- these are three direct hints I know of

-Priest Jaguarfiv's hint is that the black and white witch Call forth Baphomet in the Demon alter for prayer.
-The tablet in the Backside-Demon Alter says that THIS room is for meditation.
-The tablet at the Hero's surrounding wall says that 5+1 witches will summon Baphomet.

You say that from other tablets we know that leaving the Black Witch alive allows the White Witch to be alive--- but we can only bring forth the Black Witch first (as far as I know),
Then there is the context clue that meditation means standing still in LM (not killing the Black Witch)--- but in order to summon the Black Witch we need to NOT meditate LM style and kill the four minor witches.

We also know that Ankhs always appear in the front, and that this one appears where Zu was guarding- so it stands to reason to gather either the witches there---

But we kill them ALL there- which throws me off.

When we look at Baphomet's Summoning animation (which we shouldn't have to to understand the puzzle) we see that the four minor witches and the White Witch are the ones to summon Baphomet- the ones we killed.

So we could say we are gathering those 5 in the afterlife, and the +1 is the Black Witch we left alive in the backside Demon Alter (of meditation)-

Another way to look at this is that 1 is conception or Origin, so the Black witch originates the White Witch, and five is the number rebirth so we have to kill them all, but that is a HUGE stretch.

With all this in mind, it does not make sense that we have to gather the five in the afterlife and leave the Black Witch to meditate unless we use a method of Guess & Check--- and so I have to either say this puzzle failed or I haven't fully understood/related a hint.

[Sicris]

You lost me. I think you are overcomplicating something that is inherently simple.

The thing with origin, afterlife, baphomet's animations and all that has nothing to do with the puzzle. Not sure where you were going with that.

The tablet said "Five witches + one will gather, at which point baphomet is summoned." Said nothing about keeping them alive, just that they gather. The 5 witches are the ones that are in the ankh room, and the black witch who is in a different room all by herself would be the +1 by default, pretty strait foward. As for keeping her alive, since you already know that the black witch is needed to summon baphomet and you haven't found a white witch yet that's pretty good incentive to keep her alive. Although if you really wanna go the meditation route, it's the witch that has to meditate, not you; remember it's a room for meditation, that doesn't mean you have to do it, just the witch who is in there that can't meditate because she is busy attacking you.

Also, you are completely missing an important tablet. "Call forth the power of the twins. The twins are two in one. The twins are identical to each other." If you kill the four witches in the back and it causes a black one to appear, it's pretty obvious that the same will happen in the front since that is the rule of the twin labrynth.


Oh Bonus: "Search on bended knee" is NOT the most important part of that puzzle. It just dictates the action but not the location. The "single fallen item" part is more important. The place where you get on your knees is directly above a pot that drops a single shuriken. It's the only pot in the area that drops a "single fallen item"

As for the hell temple unlock, it all makes perfect sence with the exception of the bottomless lava pit, that lava pit was just something you have to brute force since there is no puzzle hints for it.

For example "Seek the fairy at the depths of the bones that gaze upon birth." Really means go to the (fairy) that is in front of the tent where the NPC skeleton (bones) that gave you mekuri master is located which is in (gaze)ing view of the treasure chest where you got the (birth) seal. Yeah I know, only makes sence if you have a photographic memory... but regardless it does make sence (even if it is completely overdoing it....)

[Dentorhedge]

Thank you Sicris. My main problem lies with gathering the five witches- by killing them. Everything you said makes sense, but there is still that leap of faith after only the BW and WW remain to kill the WW and get the reveal that you were gathering them by killing them.

Your explanation for the BW has taken a layer off of my confusion and is a totally reasonable solution for that portion of the puzzle, thank you again.

I was considering that idea at the time of writing as well (last paragraph).

Excuses, apologetics, and explainations that are probably not relevant to you ensue.
(TLDR: TLDR):

Aye, that was all long winded and overly detailed speech... but not only is that a problem with how I speak, but also because I wanted to make a more complete case for how there are some things that could make this solution either almost work or
.
There are other leaps of faith, of course, usually related to coin-chests, but those are bonuses to begin with.

Those other two were only examples of things that previously did not make sense to me. A skeleton in the Gate of Time tells to you talk to other people about secrets in the area-- so even the ninteen screens in Lava make sense.

[Vil]

Strictly speaking, the other four witches in the black witch's room respawn (whether black witch is alive or dead) once you leave and return. You're generally not going to notice this in an actual playthrough though. So the way I see it, the five are the witches in there, and the one is the white witch across on the other side.

The part that never made sense to me was then killing the white witch afterward to spawn the ankh.

[Dentorhedge]

Thank you, Vilurum.
... And the waters have muddied once again. On the "Does anybody Own LM EX?" thread someone mentioned that there are clues added regarding Baphomet, but does not remember specifics.

Whether or not the BW and those specific other four play an important role, when Baphomet is summoned we see that the WW is the one playing a more active role in the summoning.

I think the title of this thread is too needy sounding... changing it.

[Sicris]

Originally posted by Dentorhedge:

there is still that leap of faith after only the BW and WW remain to kill the WW and get the reveal that you were gathering them by killing them.

That I grant you is technically true. Although the fact that they are both on a different counter may be a hint. They could have easily said 2 witches are needed to summon or 6 witches are needed but instead chose to deliberatly say 5 + 1 witches. It's obvious that this indicates that they are in different rooms but less obvious is that it can also technically indicate that you have to treat them differently, like say kill 5 and leave one alone, or let 5 live and kill 1, etc

Originally posted by Dentorhedge:

Those other two were only examples of things that previously did not make sense to me. A skeleton in the Gate of Time tells to you talk to other people about secrets in the area-- so even the ninteen screens in Lava make sense.

Ehh not really, cuz that lava pit thing was in the original as well. The "ask a veteran about a secret that lies in this area" was refering more to the location of where the old hell temple resided of which there is no indication for new players anywhere in the game (But a veteran of the original would know). The lava pit is a brute force because unlike all the other puzzles in the game you really only have 5 options there; 1) Hit left wall 2) Hit right wall 3) Go down 4) Warp out and 5) Drown. Really as much as I hate to say it it's probably the only puzzle in the game that doesn't need a tablet since only 3 of those options are viable, though I will be the first to admit it's the only puzzle in the game I found to be unfit and poorly implemented when compared to the others.

[Sicris]

Originally posted by Dentorhedge:

Thank you, Vilurum.
... And the waters have muddied once again.:fungus:

No it's the same situation just flipped around. It doesn't matter whether I'm right or Vilurum is right. Wheather it's 5 + 1 or 1 + 5, both lead to the same exact conclusion.

[Smurfton]

Assuming that we're going with the five witches being in the not-ankh room, and the white witch being in the Ankh room, then I know why you must kill the white witch.

In the original game, in order to unlock Ellmac's boss fight, you must kill the two cranes in the room after sending the minecart down there for the ankh to spawn because there is never an enemy in the room with the ankh.