Mixed feelings about Deep Archimedea

[JOKER]

I love the Deep Archimedea concept, but forcing us to use one of 3 random warframes and weapons in each category feels like another desperate and lazy way to "make the game difficult" and "balance the game", just as they previously did with grendel farm (no mods mode) and duviri (random warframes and weapons).

We farmed all these years to become stronger just to end up debuffing ourselves with these kind of stupid mechanics that won't allow us to use the setups WE WANT at their maximum potential

However, I kinda like how the one dimensional tryhard noobs won't be allowed (mostly) to use their meta Revenant+torid+laetum+glaive prime or whatever is the actual meta

[C.D.J. Grazza]

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

I love the Deep Archimedea concept, but forcing us to use one of 3 random warframes and weapons in each category feels like another desperate and lazy way to "make the game difficult" and "balance the game", just as they previously did with grendel farm (no mods mode) and duviri (random warframes and weapons).

We farmed all these years to become stronger just to end up debuffing ourselves with these kind of stupid mechanics that won't allow us to use the setups WE WANT at their maximum potential

However, I kinda like how the one dimensional tryhard noobs won't be allowed (mostly) to use their meta Revenant+torid+laetum+glaive prime or whatever is the actual meta

I'm probably a one of those one "dimensioinal tryhard noobs". Futhermore I'm not that smart.

But in all honesty, I agree with you in principle. If you've played the game for a long time, no one should be debuffed. You're speaking into content that's miles over where I'm at in the game, but it sounds kinda 'sus' that debuff's constantly happen to experienced high rank players.

It kind of puts me off getting good if all that work will just get my equipment and mods and setups debuffed.

I guess my honest question is why is this happening? DE seems to be trying to make the game good. hmmm. IDK.

[FreshlyGrilledPanic]

Nguyên văn bởi Kawalorn:

Nguyên văn bởi FreshlyGrilledPanic:

Be careful when criticizing this game. Far too many in this community think DE can do no wrong and will viciously attack you for saying it isn't perfect regardless of the state it is in.

Quit jerking yourself off over being contrarian.

Nguyên văn bởi -Sköningen-:

Nguyên văn bởi FreshlyGrilledPanic:

Be careful when criticizing this game. Far too many in this community think DE can do no wrong and will viciously attack you for saying it isn't perfect regardless of the state it is in.

What if I think you're "viciously attacking" the game, whereas we're merely "criticizing" the attacks?
The phrasing is silly. The point is that a party putting forth criticism should be open to dealing with criticism of their own, especially if the counter-criticism is based on the merits of their arguments. If arguments in favour of what I perceive to be a potential negative development are being made, then I'll argue against those arguments. That's a natural outcome of a breathing community. How about you first present good arguments in favour of your cause before acting like there's some silly witch hunt in the name of a game developer?

Thank you both for proving my point.

[-Sköningen-]

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Nguyên văn bởi Illusive Soul:

People like you and OP or other Diabetes guy already complain so much just because the new mode dont allow you to use your gear and finish the challenge under few mintues,so id expect more people hate it and maybe end up getting tuned into baby mode.

this make me starting to respect Destiny 2 player because most of them never afraid of little challenge.

There is a reason of why most of warframes and gear are sitting at ~0.14% ussage, numbers don't lie, players don't like playing with them for X and Y reasons. https://www.warframe.com/es/2023stats

(I encourage you or any other person reading this to please, show me a fair balance beteween all your gear and warframes ussage in your profile statistics, which you won't do, obviously.)

If the lack of options is your idea of "challenge", then I also encourage you to remove all your mods and play Steel Path on a daily basis with mastery fodder weapons just for the sake of "having a challenge". We don't want you to be afraid of a challenge or wasting your true potential playing baby mode with mods and your favorite gear, am I right?

Using the lack of options as a pseudo-challenge IS NOT a challenge, it is a handycap as @Kitkat mentioned many times and this is just another desperate way of pushing players into the equipement that, (just as the statistics say); no one wants to use. for the sake of getting more rewards.

A handicap can, indeed, be a challenge. Yes. You got it.
Now, I'm not sure where to really begin. Anything can be a challenge. A "challenge" on its own is worthless. What makes a challenge worthwhile is an appropriate reward structure - be it the actual reward from completing challenges, or even the reward of a heightened enjoyment from achieving it against all odds.
Why do you think there's an entire community of speedrunners who perform insane feats while blindfolded?

That being said, allow me to reiterate that a challenge on its own is meaningless. Surely, you must understand this? If the concept of "a challenge" had any intrinsic value, then we'd start handicapping ourselves in our daily lives by jumping around on one leg. We typically don't, because that would be stupid.

The reason why challenges often have a positive connotation is because they generally force us to think outside the box, making any achievement feel that much greater. Any form of proper incentive to overcome odds stacked against you is bound to imbue the achievement of doing so with proper impact.

Removing all my mods for normal SP, without any incentive for doing so, would be stupid. The reason why Deep Archimedean succeeds where your examples fail is that although your options are limited, the game still incentivises you to go ALL IN on the options available to you. Being geared towards proper end-game, DE can also assume you have the resources to do so.

An equal amount of intellectual dishonesty on the other end would ask you to just play chess against toddlers all day long, and pose the question of why a fleshed-out, CHALLENGING end-game for MMOs is something universally considered to be a good thing. Why are people prone to seek out challenges, you think?

Like, you're literally granted AN ENTIRE WEEK to take your limited loadout as far as you possibly can, while also incentivising you to look for squad members that are able to cover your weaknesses. It's not a "pseudo-challenge." It's a proper challenge that rewards a broad arsenal, outside-the-box thinking, effort, teamwork, planning & strategizing with some of the best loot the game has to offer on the other end.

[Illusive Soul]

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

There is a reason of why most of warframes and gear are sitting at ~0.14% ussage, numbers don't lie, players don't like playing with them for X and Y reasons. https://www.warframe.com/es/2023stats

you mean Caliban the Under rated frame ? it is funny that this frame actually pretty good to use,have some shame that as a revenant meta hater like you not try to make caliban better.

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

(I encourage you or any other person reading this to please, show me a fair balance beteween all your gear and warframes ussage in your profile statistics, which you won't do, obviously.)

If the lack of options is your idea of "challenge", then I also encourage you to remove all your mods and play Steel Path on a daily basis with mastery fodder weapons just for the sake of "having a challenge". We don't want you to be afraid of a challenge or wasting your true potential playing baby mode with mods and your favorite gear, am I right?

there is a thing,i play the game as intended and follow the rules,if the new mode challenge me to remove all my mods and same as other player,i would happy to do it too.

the funny thing is,the mode only randomize gear,not removing mod,so leave your poor nonsense aside.

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Using the lack of options as a pseudo-challenge IS NOT a challenge, it is a handycap as @Kitkat mentioned many times and this is just another desperate way of pushing players into the equipement that, (just as the statistics say); no one wants to use. for the sake of getting more rewards.

and what ? letting you use your own powerful gear and finish the hard mode in few minutes ? the enemy only 350+ level,with the Meta gear,enemy get melt in second,if you cant do it dont do it,or get lower reward because you finish it with no effort,or Spamming DE changing that new mode cranking enemy level up to 2 - 5k and replace Randomized gear option.

Have abit faith in DE,they might lower the difficulty just because you guys keep whining.

[JOKER]

Nguyên văn bởi Illusive Soul:

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

There is a reason of why most of warframes and gear are sitting at ~0.14% ussage, numbers don't lie, players don't like playing with them for X and Y reasons. https://www.warframe.com/es/2023stats

you mean Caliban the Under rated frame ? it is funny that this frame actually pretty good to use,have some shame that as a revenant meta hater like you not try to make caliban better.

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

(I encourage you or any other person reading this to please, show me a fair balance beteween all your gear and warframes ussage in your profile statistics, which you won't do, obviously.)

If the lack of options is your idea of "challenge", then I also encourage you to remove all your mods and play Steel Path on a daily basis with mastery fodder weapons just for the sake of "having a challenge". We don't want you to be afraid of a challenge or wasting your true potential playing baby mode with mods and your favorite gear, am I right?

there is a thing,i play the game as intended and follow the rules,if the new mode challenge me to remove all my mods and same as other player,i would happy to do it too.

the funny thing is,the mode only randomize gear,not removing mod,so leave your poor nonsense aside.

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Using the lack of options as a pseudo-challenge IS NOT a challenge, it is a handycap as @Kitkat mentioned many times and this is just another desperate way of pushing players into the equipement that, (just as the statistics say); no one wants to use. for the sake of getting more rewards.

and what ? letting you use your own powerful gear and finish the hard mode in few minutes ? the enemy only 350+ level,with the Meta gear,enemy get melt in second,if you cant do it dont do it,or get lower reward because you finish it with no effort,or Spamming DE changing that new mode cranking enemy level up to 2 - 5k and replace Randomized gear option.

Have abit faith in DE,they might lower the difficulty just because you guys keep whining.

Still waiting for you to show us your perfect balance statistics

Nguyên văn bởi -Sköningen-:

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

There is a reason of why most of warframes and gear are sitting at ~0.14% ussage, numbers don't lie, players don't like playing with them for X and Y reasons. https://www.warframe.com/es/2023stats

(I encourage you or any other person reading this to please, show me a fair balance beteween all your gear and warframes ussage in your profile statistics, which you won't do, obviously.)

If the lack of options is your idea of "challenge", then I also encourage you to remove all your mods and play Steel Path on a daily basis with mastery fodder weapons just for the sake of "having a challenge". We don't want you to be afraid of a challenge or wasting your true potential playing baby mode with mods and your favorite gear, am I right?

Using the lack of options as a pseudo-challenge IS NOT a challenge, it is a handycap as @Kitkat mentioned many times and this is just another desperate way of pushing players into the equipement that, (just as the statistics say); no one wants to use. for the sake of getting more rewards.

A handicap can, indeed, be a challenge. Yes. You got it.
Now, I'm not sure where to really begin. Anything can be a challenge. A "challenge" on its own is worthless. What makes a challenge worthwhile is an appropriate reward structure - be it the actual reward from completing challenges, or even the reward of a heightened enjoyment from achieving it against all odds.
Why do you think there's an entire community of speedrunners who perform insane feats while blindfolded?

That being said, allow me to reiterate that a challenge on its own is meaningless. Surely, you must understand this? If the concept of "a challenge" had any intrinsic value, then we'd start handicapping ourselves in our daily lives by jumping around on one leg. We typically don't, because that would be stupid.

The reason why challenges often have a positive connotation is because they generally force us to think outside the box, making any achievement feel that much greater. Any form of proper incentive to overcome odds stacked against you is bound to imbue the achievement of doing so with proper impact.

Removing all my mods for normal SP, without any incentive for doing so, would be stupid. The reason why Deep Archimedean succeeds where your examples fail is that although your options are limited, the game still incentivises you to go ALL IN on the options available to you. Being geared towards proper end-game, DE can also assume you have the resources to do so.

An equal amount of intellectual dishonesty on the other end would ask you to just play chess against toddlers all day long, and pose the question of why a fleshed-out, CHALLENGING end-game for MMOs is something universally considered to be a good thing. Why are people prone to seek out challenges, you think?

Like, you're literally granted AN ENTIRE WEEK to take your limited loadout as far as you possibly can, while also incentivising you to look for squad members that are able to cover your weaknesses. It's not a "pseudo-challenge." It's a proper challenge that rewards a broad arsenal, outside-the-box thinking, effort, teamwork, planning & strategizing with some of the best loot the game has to offer on the other end.

"AN ENTIRE WEEK to take your limited loadout as far as you possibly can" Is this A CHALLENGE to you by any means?

Because to me, it's just a waste of time to do so with mastery fodder trash that I won't use ever again outside that specific mission that specific week for a specific 30 minutes, so please, tell me, how is this a challenge to you?

You will spend 2 hours doing ESO and throw 20 formas into that mastery fodder weapons you have 0% ussage. THIS is the "End game challenge" you're all praying to, For me, this is not a challenge, it is a challenge to you?

[Illusive Soul]

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Still waiting for you to show us your perfect balance statistics

you dont need to,i have nothing to show,i just a player that prefer to deal with game challenge instead whining.

[JOKER]

Nguyên văn bởi Illusive Soul:

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Still waiting for you to show us your perfect balance statistics

you dont need to,i have nothing to show,i just a player that prefer to deal with game challenge instead whining.

I'll ask you the same question then. Is spending 2 hours in ESO and 20 formas into trash mastery fodder a "challenge" to you by any means? Because that's all it takes to beat this mode.

At this point I think you're just spamming to get jesters, because it makes no sense to me that you trully consider this a challenge.

[KitKat]

Nguyên văn bởi Illusive Soul:

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Still waiting for you to show us your perfect balance statistics

you dont need to,i have nothing to show,i just a player that prefer to deal with game challenge instead whining.

Yeah. Sure. "Dealing with challenge".

Meanwhile, adjacent thread about "most used frames":

Nguyên văn bởi Illusive Soul:

Kullervo>Revenant>Mesa>Wisp>Nova,i think soon Dante gonna replace someone in that list.

Meta red-crit heavy attack frame, followed by meta unkillable frame, followed by another insane damage dealing/room-clearing meta frame, followed by another top tier damage-dealing-supporting-controlling-unkillable frame, followed by a frame that fell off meta a little bit with the release of a few others, but still very much viable and still there at the very edge of meta. And by "meta" in this particular context I literally mean warframes that are considered the most powerful and most useful in 99% of the content of the game.

Yeah. Right. "DEALING WITH CHALLENGE". Of course. Yup. You've earned every single reward on every single post of yours lol.

[-Sköningen-]

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

"AN ENTIRE WEEK to take your limited loadout as far as you possibly can" Is this A CHALLENGE to you by any means?

Because to me, it's just a waste of time to do so with mastery fodder trash that I won't use ever again outside that specific mission that specific week for a specific 30 minutes, so please, tell me, how is this a challenge to you?

You will spend 2 hours doing ESO and throw 20 formas into that mastery fodder weapons you have 0% ussage. THIS is the "End game challenge" you're all praying to, For me, this is not a challenge, it is a challenge to you?

Wait, what's your argument at this point? That it will be easy?
My argument is that it will, probably, be difficult enough to force you to invest into the loadout to succeed with all the modifiers and whatnot. Investment isn't "random," but targeted and based on planning that makes the loadout as 'complete' as possible. Once the loadout is finished, the goal is for the content to provide enough of a difficulty to force you to perform at a high standard to succeed. How is this not a challenge?
I seriously don't understand.

[Guts]

Unless the featured frame is one I like, I just use revenant. I usually ignore the featured weapons as well. You don't need them if you can do steel path. If you have an invigorated warframe, it's just as good as the "right warframe" bonus.

[Illusive Soul]

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

Nguyên văn bởi Illusive Soul:

you dont need to,i have nothing to show,i just a player that prefer to deal with game challenge instead whining.

I'll ask you the same question then. Is spending 2 hours in ESO and 20 formas into trash mastery fodder a "challenge" to you by any means? Because that's all it takes to beat this mode.

At this point I think you're just spamming to get jesters, because it makes no sense to me that you trully consider this a challenge.

i rather using garbage premod weapon that i sold ages ago,if the game give me premod weapon,i take the L and roll with it.

i became spammer now just because you dont like my opinion ? ,hey its fine,i had no issue with the new game mode,you can keep stay mad.

you should question who are the real clown that be so generous keep giving jester points,i dont really care though,id take the point.

[KitKat]

Nguyên văn bởi N473:

Unless the featured frame is one I like, I just use revenant. I usually ignore the featured weapons as well. You don't need them if you can do steel path. If you have an invigorated warframe, it's just as good as the "right warframe" bonus.

Thing is, unless they've reconsidered since the previews, the Deep Archimedia will *require* you to use the "featured" frame/weapons, if you want the full bonus reward. If you use your own desired frame/weapons, you won't get the full reward, even if you click on ALL OTHER modifiers, but not the gear.

So yeah. It's "forced", if you want the full reward.

All while not even being a challenge, but rather locking you to underwhelming randomly chosen stuff.

[Illusive Soul]

Nguyên văn bởi KitKat:

Thing is, unless they've reconsidered since the previews, the Deep Archimedia will *require* you to use the "featured" frame/weapons, if you want the full bonus reward. If you use your own desired frame/weapons, you won't get the full reward, even if you click on ALL OTHER modifiers, but not the gear.

So yeah. It's "forced", if you want the full reward.

All while not even being a challenge, but rather locking you to underwhelming randomly chosen stuff.

at this rate i think DE should Lock all the challenge together so no one have the choice to play the build they want to get lower reward.

[Frost Spectre]

Me being very against using random stuff just means I will not even try it.

[JOKER]

Nguyên văn bởi -Sköningen-:

Nguyên văn bởi Anakin:

"AN ENTIRE WEEK to take your limited loadout as far as you possibly can" Is this A CHALLENGE to you by any means?

Because to me, it's just a waste of time to do so with mastery fodder trash that I won't use ever again outside that specific mission that specific week for a specific 30 minutes, so please, tell me, how is this a challenge to you?

You will spend 2 hours doing ESO and throw 20 formas into that mastery fodder weapons you have 0% ussage. THIS is the "End game challenge" you're all praying to, For me, this is not a challenge, it is a challenge to you?

Wait, what's your argument at this point? That it will be easy?
My argument is that it will, probably, be difficult enough to force you to invest into the loadout to succeed with all the modifiers and whatnot. Investment isn't "random," but targeted and based on planning that makes the loadout as 'complete' as possible. Once the loadout is finished, the goal is for the content to provide enough of a difficulty to force you to perform at a high standard to succeed. How is this not a challenge?
I seriously don't understand.

I think I explained my point pretty well there.

Modding+leveling+formating can make your mastery fodder weapons (those you have with 0% ussage) pretty decent for high levels with proper priming and modding.

But of course, even after all your investment, they will still be performing subpar and will get outperformed by the best in slots and you end up leveling, moding and investing into weapons that you won't use outside that specific mission once in a year(depends on the RNG), so this has nothing to do with skill or challenge, its just a matter of resources and time.

I'll put a madeup example:
Your unmoded Aklato deals 5 damage to a level 350 enemy and will take you 100 shots to kill him. Does this mean you are unskilled? Is this a challenge? Double noes.

Now, you have invested half an hour doing ESO, 5 formas, a catalyst and modded your Aklato with a nice build, now it deals 50.000 damage to that level 350 enemy and can kill it with a couple of shots.

Bravo, now you have minmaxed an Aklato that you won't touch again and the weekly Deep Archimidea mission took you 40 minutes instead of 20-30 minutes, which is the time that would have taken you with the best in slot secondary.

As you can see, there is no challenge here, is exactly the same, boring loop we had to deal with Mastery Rank points, but now with an extra steep, which is minmax every single weapon and warframe after we get the mastery points.

How can this be a challenge? Is the same as saying that gaining mastery rank points is a challenge because you have to follow a similar process,

it is not a challenge, its just DE pushing us into their "Dream End Game" where we all have, use and minmax all of our gear, but instead of making balanced gear, they kinda wants us to invest into suboptimal options for the sake of "challenge".

I'm not buying it as a viable End Game Experience. I will do it, because I have to in order to get all the rewards, but this is simply BS.