so, about energy economy..

[wolfie']

PSA: i don't experience energy starvation problems. energy problem solutions is not even remotely the point of this thread. don't give advice. thanks.

does anyone have any constructive ideas for how to fix the ever-present energy issue? you realistically only have 3 options that are even considerable to be able to play the game on over half the roster of frames in steel path and even just sortie level content:

1. waste an arcane slot and use energize (lmao)

2. waste a choice of focus school and use zenurik (lmao again, and also ♥♥♥♥ you if you want to do something like farm angels on madurai without another energy fix)

3. waste and drop mod / arcane slots for largely ineffective solutions (i.e. steadfast, equilibrium, etc)


technically there's a fourth option to play a droprate frame or just.. get lucky? but that's not even an intended way to work around the problem, so.

personally i feel like all of this is to do with the actual rate of energy orbs themselves being abysmally low compared to how much energy is required for an average frame to operate a rotation that ACTUALLY keeps them alive in modern warframe.

the reliance on operator (for everything, including debuffs) and widely inaccessible arcanes also leaves the early / mid-game feeling terrible and treating abilities as more of an occasional compliment to gunplay, REGARDLESS of frame, rather than the other way around. i'm personally unaware why the energy orb droprate has to be as horrifically low as it is, but i'm sure there's a half-assed decent reason why it is that way; which is why i neglect to just say "increase orb rate lol."

but honestly, i genuinely cannot think of another solution to this issue personally. the energy requirement is higher than ever to actually participate in content that is still intended for more casual players, and yet the energy economy has fallen almost ENTIRELY upon zenurik for those players, for years. this also means that if you just "oops! i'm on madurai!" or, "oops! i'm on naramon!", you quite literally cannot play the video game if you're on a frame that requires more than like 50 energy per minute; and you likely will just abort and restart.


like... yikes.

[Thing1Thang2]

This just seems like you want a full strength build without properly worrying about efficiency.
Energy is a core gameplay mechanic. Next your gonna complain about cast speed. Switch to Lavos or Hildryn. Boom no energy worries.

Silly to complain about energy hungry builds and not build around it. Either manage your energy better or use the many many systems for energy regen.
use equilibrium, spawn more health and energy orbs using Nekros. use protea with dispenser. Use Gyre who can regen energy solo. Trinity well of life augment. Voruna energy on headshots. Harrow energy on headshots for your whole team. Craft energy restores.

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door Cash or Credit:

This just seems like you want a full strength build without properly worrying about efficiency.
Energy is a core gameplay mechanic. Next your gonna complain about cast speed. Switch to Lavos or Hildryn. Boom no energy worries.

Silly to complain about energy hungry builds and not build around it. Either manage your energy better or use the many many systems for energy regen.
use equilibrium, spawn more health and energy orbs using Nekros. use protea with dispenser. Use Gyre who can regen energy solo. Trinity well of life augment. Voruna energy on headshots. Harrow energy on headshots for your whole team. Craft energy restores.

Nyx is a good example of a warframe that literally cannot play the game at any decent level without an extraneous energy supplement, even at 160% efficiency. also, reminder, if you run high efficiency or sacrifice too many power mods, many warframes still can't play the game. at least they can cast abilities though!!

valkyr cannot play without a supplement. neither can zephyr. or voruna. or sevagoth. or nova. or hydroid. or mesa, mag, chroma, ember, etc..

this is not "game design." this is not a 'non problem.' this is a completely dated energy economy system with nothing but extraneous systems that have been added over the course of a decade to make it slightly more bearable.

so, i pose you a question, since you mentioned cast speed. would you rather slot in Natural Talent instead of slotting in that equilibrium?
oh wait, you don't get to have that option. almost ever. not unless you willingly want to sacrifice more useful mods that you realistically need, or the frame you're playing requires very few mods to do their job correctly.

again, i ask: but WHY are you okay with the baseline of energy economy being so terrible that it NEEDS a supplement?

don't mistake my intention. try to actually have a conversation about the subject matter, instead of being dismissive after you completely miss the point, please.
i want the game to be better, more accessible, to have more people join and experience what i think is a fantastic game underneath the surface and all the things it has to offer. not for my gameplay to be a little more convenient or for my Saryn to do a few million more damage that i will literally never need in any content ever.

[The Big Brzezinski]

If you had enough energy without any energy supplying components to your loadout, you would never use those components over additional offensive power.

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door The Big Brzezinski:

If you had enough energy without any energy supplying components to your loadout, you would never use those components over additional offensive power.

under the assumption that you aren't using above 115-125 energy per minute, which is what most frames with unhealthy and purposeless baseline energy struggles need, sure. if i'm killing 80 dudes per minute, i should probably get back the energy i'm spending at a more consistent and reliable rate, considering that i'm... killing the dudes.

if i'm... not.. killing the dudes, i don't think it'd be fair that i get the energy back.

the fact that you can average 100 kills per min and actually even have a chance to not make an energy profit off of orbs alone is insanity to me.

imo if you were to just fine tune or dynamically attenuate (i know, but hear me out) the current droprate of orbs, that could potentially fix the issue. theoretically, i think it's overall more healthy for the game as a whole if you are guaranteed a certain amount of energy per minute if you are converting that energy into an expected amount of kills, up to a cap. that cap being the aforementioned 115-125 per/m, or whatever is currently befitting for the state of the game.

obviously i have no idea how that would work with co-op or many other facets, but it's a thought experiment. for example there's no excuse for Nyx to literally not be able to properly rotate her abilities on many steel path missions without extra energy that the game simply does not provide her with, even if she's reaching over 55-60 kpm. especially considering that almost every build she runs is over 150% efficiency.

ideally you wouldn't do any of this and just rework the energy system, but if you had to frankenstein the current system into working, maybe that'd be a start.

edit: grammar
edit edit: clarification

[Bowbie]

Firstly, you should tell us what style do you play. If you only play the standard, ie. solo rota C SP mission,solo netracell or solo trilodon, i never had an energy issue with that. If you're playing solo endurance that's a whole other playstyle and you should've told us. For that, i don't have an insight since i don't fancy those runs. If you're talking about 4-people party, that's another story where you should have no sort of issue whatsoever.

I seldom have energy issue ever, i don't know how you play to starve that much energy, i pretty much bask in energy.

You are talking about THREE means to deal with that but you're still not happy ? And btw, there's a 4th, pizzas, available freely everywhere but netracells and archon hunt and even there, 1 every 3 min is enough in emergency imo.

Maybe you should adapt to the game and not the other way around ?
"Because the form is restrictive, ideas emerge more intensely" - Baudelaire (my translation so take that with a grain of salt)

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door Bowbie:

Firstly, you should tell us what style do you play. If you only play the standard, ie. solo rota C SP mission,solo netracell or solo trilodon, i never had an energy issue with that. If you're playing solo endurance that's a whole other playstyle and you should've told us. For that, i don't have an insight since i don't fancy those runs. If you're talking about 4-people party, that's another story where you should have no sort of issue whatsoever.

I seldom have energy issue ever, i don't know how you play to starve that much energy, i pretty much bask in energy.

You are talking about THREE means to deal with that but you're still not happy ? And btw, there's a 4th, pizzas, available freely everywhere but netracells and archon hunt and even there, 1 every 3 min is enough in emergency imo.

i've played every type of gameplay experience from starter to endurance that the game has had to offer from every major era. i played early, mid and late game in the stamina system days, i also did the same in 2015-2018, and i have done the same now.

this isn't a discussion on there not being enough solutions, there are actually too many. the fact that there is a NEED for a solution when simply trying to play a warframe with their base kit, on a standard build, is the issue.
the problem is not that i have energy struggles. i have literally zero. nourish is an ability in the hit video game warframe, developed by Digital Extremes. end of story. the problem is that you are required to force the energy system to give you enough just to make many frames operate as intended, without them even trying to run an energy hungry build.

[Bowbie]

Origineel geplaatst door wolfie':

the problem is that you are required to force the energy system to give you enough just to make many frames operate as intended

I really don't get that argument. Even with base, non prime mods, on a totally new frame, i find i can cast enough abilities for it to be fun. Sure i cannot spam 24/7 but i don't think that's the point of the game ? For you to be able to do that and clear maps, you have to adapt your build. Range, Strength, duration, energy, that's all points of optimization.

It's like saying that in order for an ability to do damage you have to pay attention to you ability strength.
"the problem is that you are required to force the strength system to give you enough damage just to make many frames operate as intended"

Yes... and where is the issue? Am I totally missing your point ?

[Midas]

Origineel geplaatst door wolfie':

Origineel geplaatst door Cash or Credit:

This just seems like you want a full strength build without properly worrying about efficiency.
Energy is a core gameplay mechanic. Next your gonna complain about cast speed. Switch to Lavos or Hildryn. Boom no energy worries.

Silly to complain about energy hungry builds and not build around it. Either manage your energy better or use the many many systems for energy regen.
use equilibrium, spawn more health and energy orbs using Nekros. use protea with dispenser. Use Gyre who can regen energy solo. Trinity well of life augment. Voruna energy on headshots. Harrow energy on headshots for your whole team. Craft energy restores.

Nyx is a good example of a warframe that literally cannot play the game at any decent level without an extraneous energy supplement, even at 160% efficiency. also, reminder, if you run high efficiency or sacrifice too many power mods, many warframes still can't play the game. at least they can cast abilities though!!

valkyr cannot play without a supplement. neither can zephyr. or voruna. or sevagoth. or nova. or hydroid. or mesa, mag, chroma, ember, etc..

this is not "game design." this is not a 'non problem.' this is a completely dated energy economy system with nothing but extraneous systems that have been added over the course of a decade to make it slightly more bearable.

so, i pose you a question, since you mentioned cast speed. would you rather slot in Natural Talent instead of slotting in that equilibrium?
oh wait, you don't get to have that option. almost ever. not unless you willingly want to sacrifice more useful mods that you realistically need, or the frame you're playing requires very few mods to do their job correctly.

again, i ask: but WHY are you okay with the baseline of energy economy being so terrible that it NEEDS a supplement?

don't mistake my intention. try to actually have a conversation about the subject matter, instead of being dismissive after you completely miss the point, please.
i want the game to be better, more accessible, to have more people join and experience what i think is a fantastic game underneath the surface and all the things it has to offer. not for my gameplay to be a little more convenient or for my Saryn to do a few million more damage that i will literally never need in any content ever.

On the topic of Nyx having energy issues, an amusing solution is to grab an energy leech eximus with mind control, which turns its energy leeching pools into a friendly effect that basically just generate endless energy for nyx so long as anything is standing in them.

As to the question about needing a 'supplement', these mechanics are literally part of how you build warframes. Should you have to build a warframe properly to get good mileage out of it? Of course. Even if they did improve the baseline energy supply, that reality wouldn't change for any warframe that wants to be leaning heavily on abilities.

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door Bowbie:

I really don't get that argument. Even with base, non prime mods, on a totally new frame, i find i can cast enough abilities for it to be fun. Sure i cannot spam 24/7 but i don't think that's the point of the game ? For you to be able to do that and clear maps, you have to adapt your build. Range, Strength, duration, energy, that's all points of optimization.

It's like saying that in order for an ability to do damage you have to pay attention to you ability strength.
"the problem is that you are required to force the strength system to give you enough damage just to make many frames operate as intended"

Yes... and ?

Mag is a starter frame.

Mag's energy economy makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you heavily bandage her energy problems.

this persists to eternum, as Mag is one of the most baseline energy hungry frames that exists.

you shouldn't have to do that.

abilities are what stop you from dying in any remotely challenging content this game (including regular path). it's not your companions, it's not your weapons, it's not your mods in the frame. it's the abilities. when you run out of energy, you die. that's how it has literally always worked, with the exception of Life Strike.

if you're reaching even 40 or 50kpm, there's no excuse that the game isn't giving you back minimum 100 energy consistently.

Origineel geplaatst door Midas:

On the topic of Nyx having energy issues, an amusing solution is to grab an energy leech eximus with mind control, which turns its energy leeching pools into a friendly effect that basically just generate endless energy for nyx so long as anything is standing in them.

woosh. also you subsume over that ability, because outside of 2 use cases that literally never happen (you mentioned one of them), it is a waste of energy.

Origineel geplaatst door Midas:

As to the question about needing a 'supplement', these mechanics are literally part of how you build warframes. Should you have to build a warframe properly to get good mileage out of it? Of course. Even if they did improve the baseline energy supply, that reality wouldn't change for any warframe that wants to be leaning heavily on abilities.

also, this isn't true. all of the best and most effective frames in the game are highly efficient ones that require very little energy, or ones that use so much energy that they require 3 different systems to provide it to them.

and also, yes, this doesn't particularly apply to invested players that already have all of these systems such as helminth, focus, arcanes etc at their disposal. what's done is done. the requirement for slots to be mandatorily used to make a frame operate as default is pretty simple to understand as being a result of bad base energy economy.

it's a contradiction to say that this isn't a necessary change in defense of the current system, just to turn around and claim that nothing would change in the top end.

like, yeah. that's the point.

[Kawalorn]

Streamline + Energy Nexus or Streamline + Fleeting Experties on channeling frames are my go to if I don't want to worry about energy while only using mod slots for it.

As others said, for some reason you want to have benefits without investments. Get over it.

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door Kawalorn:

Streamline + Energy Nexus or Streamline + Fleeting Experties on channeling frames are my go to if I don't want to worry about energy while only using mod slots for it.

As others said, for some reason you want to have benefits without investments. Get over it.

the investment is the energy?? and the kills? in the game? with the frame that's making the kills happen? in what world is it reasonable to assume that you need to supplement 70-80% of the energy coming into your frame if it's not energy hungry?

genuinely. i don't understand how this isn't complacency.
edit: typo

[Bowbie]

Origineel geplaatst door wolfie':

Mag's energy economy makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you heavily bandage her energy problems.

Mag's strength requirements makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you heavily bandage that.
Mag's range/duration requirements makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you heavily bandage that.
Mag's second ability requiring a good weapon makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you have a good weapon.

I genuinely don't see the difference between those statements, though if i understand what you mean, only one is an issue ? And again if you're talking about midgame, spam pizzas (there's a bp that only cost ferrite and alloy iirc), problem solved ?

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door Bowbie:

Mag's strength requirements makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you heavily bandage that.
Mag's range/duration requirements makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you heavily bandage that.
Mag's second ability requiring a good weapon makes her completely unplayable into the midgame unless you have a good weapon.

I genuinely don't see the difference between those statements, though if i understand what you mean, only one is an issue ? And again if you're talking about midgame, spam pizzas (there's a bp that only cost ferrite and alloy iirc), problem solved ?

this is the equivalent of saying "just use energize lol."
the fact that there is a solution to a problem is proof that there is a problem.
problems should usually be fixed, no?

so.. do you disagree that un-supplemented energy economy is a problem or not? because this point is going in circles if you insist on using one of the bandaids to the lack of energy return on kill.

[Douchebag Extraordinaire]

There are solutions but it falls on your hands to use those solutions.

From what I can tell though, you seem to be hung up on a lot of things that aren't actually true that it's painting your view on this "energy economy" and quite frankly, it's a bit one sided.

[wolfie']

Origineel geplaatst door Douchebag Extraordinaire:

There are solutions but it falls on your hands to use those solutions.

From what I can tell though, you seem to be hung up on a lot of things that aren't actually true that it's painting your view on this "energy economy" and quite frankly, it's a bit one sided.

could you please cite what i've expressed that's explicitly incorrect? i'm curious.