so, about energy economy..

[wolfie']

PSA: i don't experience energy starvation problems. energy problem solutions is not even remotely the point of this thread. don't give advice. thanks.

does anyone have any constructive ideas for how to fix the ever-present energy issue? you realistically only have 3 options that are even considerable to be able to play the game on over half the roster of frames in steel path and even just sortie level content:

1. waste an arcane slot and use energize (lmao)

2. waste a choice of focus school and use zenurik (lmao again, and also ♥♥♥♥ you if you want to do something like farm angels on madurai without another energy fix)

3. waste and drop mod / arcane slots for largely ineffective solutions (i.e. steadfast, equilibrium, etc)


technically there's a fourth option to play a droprate frame or just.. get lucky? but that's not even an intended way to work around the problem, so.

personally i feel like all of this is to do with the actual rate of energy orbs themselves being abysmally low compared to how much energy is required for an average frame to operate a rotation that ACTUALLY keeps them alive in modern warframe.

the reliance on operator (for everything, including debuffs) and widely inaccessible arcanes also leaves the early / mid-game feeling terrible and treating abilities as more of an occasional compliment to gunplay, REGARDLESS of frame, rather than the other way around. i'm personally unaware why the energy orb droprate has to be as horrifically low as it is, but i'm sure there's a half-assed decent reason why it is that way; which is why i neglect to just say "increase orb rate lol."

but honestly, i genuinely cannot think of another solution to this issue personally. the energy requirement is higher than ever to actually participate in content that is still intended for more casual players, and yet the energy economy has fallen almost ENTIRELY upon zenurik for those players, for years. this also means that if you just "oops! i'm on madurai!" or, "oops! i'm on naramon!", you quite literally cannot play the video game if you're on a frame that requires more than like 50 energy per minute; and you likely will just abort and restart.


like... yikes.

[Midas]

This reads like it's being framed as some kind of big obstacle, and I'm not really understanding why, though I personally don't use any of those things in isolation for energy anymore. Nearly all of my warframes are comfortably powered by either Rage/Hunter Adrenaline, or Equilibrium. Arcane Energize is a nice bonus if you need more, but it's still a bit of a luxury item, and I don't see any real reason you can't just use void dash.

[Salt Factory]

A nice option is the new Energy Nexus mod. Combined with subsumed nourish you basically never run out of energy.
Nourish itself is one of the, if not THE best subsume ability since it gives a huge damage boost while also giving a flat multiplier on ALL energy sources.

Use nourish, never worry about energy again. And the energy regen mod for the grimoire is also very strong. And can be combined with nourish.

Nourish is the answer to all your energy problems!

[wolfie']

Originally posted by Midas:

This reads like it's being framed as some kind of big obstacle, and I'm not really understanding why, though I personally don't use any of those things in isolation for energy anymore. Nearly all of my warframes are comfortably powered by either Rage/Hunter Adrenaline, or Equilibrium. Arcane Energize is a nice bonus if you need more, but it's still a bit of a luxury item, and I don't see any real reason you can't just use void dash.

from my perspective it's not really anything but a top-down issue, but that still makes it a problem.

the presence of energy orbs and how they can be converted into varying types of power to kill enemies by different frames indicates to me that those orbs are the thing that should be driving your energy economy primarily. this also correlates with the fact that on the steel path for example, enemy spawn rates and general durability are tuned up greatly- this means that you are working significantly harder to achieve a power level that KILLS these enemies, with... no direct energy reward back from the investment.

take this instance for example:

if i cast Mesa 4 and spend 75 total energy in a regular path mission, and i kill 30 - 45 enemies. this will likely have me benefit from an energy positive, just due to the volume of enemies i was able to kill with the amount of energy i spent.

if i cast Mesa 4 and spend 75 total energy in a steel path mission, and i kill 10 - 15 enemies with the same amount of energy. it's safe to say that i am definitely not going to make an energy profit from that exchange without a lot of luck.


yeah, if you're using a frame like Saryn or any number of others that CAN run mods like hunter adrenaline, sure. cool. however, being that most frames in the game right now either rely on channeling abilities such as Gloom to survive, or they are ALREADY dropping an entire mod slot for something like Rolling Guard, you can kind of see where the problem is.

if you are investing energy to kill enemies, and not getting energy BACK from the enemies, that is how this problem occurs. yes, it's not a huge problem. just use zenurik. but that isn't the point of addressing the issue directly at all.

[Midas]

Originally posted by wolfie':

Originally posted by Midas:

This reads like it's being framed as some kind of big obstacle, and I'm not really understanding why, though I personally don't use any of those things in isolation for energy anymore. Nearly all of my warframes are comfortably powered by either Rage/Hunter Adrenaline, or Equilibrium. Arcane Energize is a nice bonus if you need more, but it's still a bit of a luxury item, and I don't see any real reason you can't just use void dash.

from my perspective it's not really anything but a top-down issue, but that still makes it a problem.

the presence of energy orbs and how they can be converted into varying types of power to kill enemies by different frames indicates to me that those orbs are the thing that should be driving your energy economy primarily. this also correlates with the fact that on the steel path for example, enemy spawn rates and general durability are tuned up greatly- this means that you are working significantly harder to achieve a power level that KILLS these enemies, with... no direct energy reward back from the investment.

take this instance for example:

if i cast Mesa 4 and spend 75 total energy in a regular path mission, and i kill 30 - 45 enemies. this will likely have me benefit from an energy positive, just due to the volume of enemies i was able to kill with the amount of energy i spent.

if i cast Mesa 4 and spend 75 total energy in a steel path mission, and i kill 10 - 15 enemies with the same amount of energy. it's safe to say that i am definitely not going to make an energy profit from that exchange without a lot of luck.


yeah, if you're using a frame like Saryn or any number of others that CAN run mods like hunter adrenaline, sure. cool. however, being that most frames in the game right now either rely on channeling abilities such as Gloom to survive, or they are ALREADY dropping an entire mod slot for something like Rolling Guard, you can kind of see where the problem is.

if you are investing energy to kill enemies, and not getting energy BACK from the enemies, that is how this problem occurs. yes, it's not a huge problem. just use zenurik. but that isn't the point of addressing the issue directly at all.

Mesa is one of the frames I run rage/hunter's adrenaline on and she works just fine. Actually, she's arguably one of the best candidates for it, since she has a 95% damage reduction buff. The only time it's not working is when she's killing things too quickly to take damage, at which point energy isn't really an obstacle anyhow.

[wolfie']

Originally posted by Midas:

Mesa is one of the frames I run rage/hunter's adrenaline on and she works just fine. Actually, she's arguably one of the best candidates for it, since she has a 95% damage reduction buff. The only time it's not working is when she's killing things too quickly to take damage, at which point energy isn't really an obstacle anyhow.

yeah, bad example on my part. point missed though, congratulations

[Midas]

Originally posted by wolfie':

Originally posted by Midas:

Mesa is one of the frames I run rage/hunter's adrenaline on and she works just fine. Actually, she's arguably one of the best candidates for it, since she has a 95% damage reduction buff. The only time it's not working is when she's killing things too quickly to take damage, at which point energy isn't really an obstacle anyhow.

yeah, bad example on my part. point missed though, congratulations

You're right, I don't know what your point is. It sounds like you're forcing yourself to run warframes in only very specific ways and those ways somehow prevent you from utilizing obvious solutions. I'm not sure why you're doing that.

[wolfie']

Originally posted by Midas:

You're right, I don't know what your point is. It sounds like you're forcing yourself to run warframes in only very specific ways and those ways somehow prevent you from utilizing obvious solutions. I'm not sure why you're doing that.

the point is that energy economy should be dictated on reaping the returns from what you spend that energy on. not on outside bandaid fixes to this greater issue.

i have an r5 energize and i run nourish or dispensary on almost every frame that needs even a tiny bit of energy to maintain themselves.

the point is that i should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, literally HAVE to do that outside of niche cases where i am consuming way more energy than normal.

[Midas]

Originally posted by wolfie':

Originally posted by Midas:

You're right, I don't know what your point is. It sounds like you're forcing yourself to run warframes in only very specific ways and those ways somehow prevent you from utilizing obvious solutions. I'm not sure why you're doing that.

the point is that energy economy should be dictated on reaping the returns from what you spend that energy on. not on outside bandaid fixes to this greater issue.

i have an r5 energize and i run nourish or dispensary on almost every frame that needs even a tiny bit of energy to maintain themselves.

the point is that i should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, literally HAVE to do that outside of niche cases where i am consuming way more energy than normal.

And you don't. I don't even have nourish or dispensary, and most of my warframes have functionally unlimited energy at the steel path level.

That said, I do think the current energy economy is a bit dated for how warframe plays now, and leaves newer players unable to really see what their warframes are fully capable of. I think warframes should just have passive energy regen like archwings do.

But as far as options that currently exist, there are many.

[wolfie']

oy vey...

Originally posted by Midas:

Originally posted by wolfie':

And you don't. I don't even have nourish or dispensary, and most of my warframes have functionally unlimited energy at the steel path level.

That said, I do think the current energy economy is a bit dated for how warframe plays now, and leaves newer players unable to really see what their warframes are fully capable of. I think warframes should just have passive energy regen like archwings do.

But as far as options that currently exist, there are many.

the point is that energy economy should be dictated on reaping the returns from what you spend that energy on. not on outside bandaid fixes to this greater issue.

[The Big Brzezinski]

There are plenty of different energy solutions, but they're all suited to different loadouts and strategies. There's no one best solution.

If you're looking for energy from kills, try an exodia brave zaw. It'll give you energy from heavy attack kills/slams. It won't work with toggle powers, but it's fine with instant and timed abilities. Goes really well with Wrathful Advance, a Life Strike mod (so why not Rage as well while you're at it), and Tennokai procs.

Equilibrium is a good option for frames that produce energy and/or health orbs. You could combine a panzer vulpaphyla's Viral Quills with Synth Deconstruct to produce health orbs on kills if yours can't.

[Nilats]

Originally posted by wolfie':

1. waste an arcane slot and use energize (lmao)

2. waste a choice of focus school and use zenurik (lmao again, and also ♥♥♥♥ you if you want to do something like farm angels on madurai without another energy fix)

3. waste and drop mod / arcane slots for largely ineffective solutions (i.e. steadfast, equilibrium, etc)

Depends on Warframe and weapons if you need 2nd arcane slot for dmg.
harrow, railjack lavos have no energy problems. inaros can redirect health dmg->energy. and for the lazy there is even arcane grace. I can stand afk in sp mission.

I like energy aura+shards at spy wukung. But other things are also very pleasant because it flies from A to B very quickly and the auto-hack skill is installed.

and I wouldn't rely on operator school. vaz dash is just too good. and there is energy pizza. They won't cost the world if you get into trouble.

[Z3pHyr]

I'm on the pov same as Midas and can't really understand how is this even an issue? There are tons of option you can utilize for your energy economy and i do feel like you are the one making this is an issue or the one limiting the way you play. Anyway, TL:DR of this thread is here right?

Originally posted by wolfie':

the point is that energy economy should be dictated on reaping the returns from what you spend that energy on. not on outside bandaid fixes to this greater issue.

the point is that i should not, under any circumstances whatsoever, literally HAVE to do that outside of niche cases where i am consuming way more energy than normal.

Correct me if i'm wrong, so what you mean, if we spend 50 energy for that ability, we should get 50 energy back no matter what or at any basic level/start? if we need to do or add something else in that equation it's a 'greater' issue that need to be fix as you said here?

[Ittrix]

So you're basically saying that if you're utilizing a warframe correctly you shouldn't have to rely on outside energy regen sources such as equilibrium cheese, zenurik, arcane energize, etc?

Iunno. It's never really been a 'true' thing. You'd have to go all the way back to before they even redid the movement system. That was like... almost 10 years ago now.
Before the current methods we had frames to boost energy to synergize skills fully, or hyper specific builds built around keeping up a single ability on, say, Loki.

Maybe it should be a true thing, but good luck convincing anyone in the warframe community of that. Their motto is generally 'just adapt', if the number of people telling you how you can fix your energy issues isn't making that evident.

[tv]

energy nexus and a yellow shard and I no longer have to care at all, just pew pew pew qorvex

[wolfie']

Originally posted by Ittrix:

So you're basically saying that if you're utilizing a warframe correctly you shouldn't have to rely on outside energy regen sources such as equilibrium cheese, zenurik, arcane energize, etc?

Iunno. It's never really been a 'true' thing. You'd have to go all the way back to before they even redid the movement system. That was like... almost 10 years ago now.
Before the current methods we had frames to boost energy to synergize skills fully, or hyper specific builds built around keeping up a single ability on, say, Loki.

Maybe it should be a true thing, but good luck convincing anyone in the warframe community of that. Their motto is generally 'just adapt', if the number of people telling you how you can fix your energy issues isn't making that evident.

don't get me wrong, energy will literally never be fixed or substantially changed by DE. at least not within this decade. they've proven that they have absolutely no interest in reworking the system at its source as opposed to supplementing it with additional systems. that's how they solve every problem, sadly. it does breed the 'just adapt' mentality as you said, which is also why a majority of the people contributing to this thread are thinking that i actually have energy issues. lmao

that in turn makes contributes to the many things that make the game even harder to get into. it also extends the number of hours it takes to really reach that point of the basic gameplay feeling truly unified with itself. it shouldn't take until Second Dream for the player to start using a consistent ability rotation. it's kind of easy to forget about when you're hundreds or thousands of hours in, but i find that unacceptable from a gameplay standpoint.

if you break it down into it's simplest terms, the question i propose is why does the player need to sacrifice power, customization or feel restricted in freedom of choice just be forced into a choice of how they will make the energy system work for them?

in theory, the energy system should work for you...

you shouldn't have to force it to let you cast abilities consistently.

at the end of the day, you sacrifice a mod slot that would be better used on something to make your experience more fun or varied. you mandatorily sacrifice an arcane slot; or like almost every single player with less than 150h- you are forced into using zenurik with no questions asked.