DE did it again, Grendel's passive

[MotherVicar]

"Passive: The more enemies you eat, the more armor you have."

THAT IS NOT A GAWD DAMN PASSIVE, no other frame can do this, this is not some generic game mechanic, this is simply a function of the ability.

That is NOT the same as a passive.

Its like saying Barruuk's passive is that when he has his energy daggers out, he receives less damage.
That is just how the ability works, a function of the ability.

Grendel's is not a passive, it could be an augment for his 1st ability sure, but its again NOT a passive.

[peppermint hollows]

Escrito originalmente por Miro Laaksonen:

I mean, technically you are right, but I really don't see why that matters in any way. What an absolutely ridiculous thing to get mad about :D

How dare people criticise the game! It's so ridiculous!! Like just don't be mad bro? :D

[Miro Laaksonen]

Escrito originalmente por peppermint hollows:

Escrito originalmente por Miro Laaksonen:

I mean, technically you are right, but I really don't see why that matters in any way. What an absolutely ridiculous thing to get mad about :D

How dare people criticise the game! It's so ridiculous!! Like just don't be mad bro? :D

I mean of course you can criticize the game, but I really don't see how that particular criticism matters. It's practically just a semantic argument, I highly doubt that affects anyone's enjoyment of the game in any way :P

[jojokaizer]

ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING can be a passive.

[Watermelons]

Escrito originalmente por talkingmute:

Escrito originalmente por Something Something Watermelons:

Come on, I've already gone over this quite thoroughly. Do I need to explain a third time the different between """passives""" that activate purely on your abilities vs passives that accrue from ability use vs passives that are simply augmentations of universal character actions?

You're usually a cool guy on these forums, why are you getting bent out of shape?

I'm just saying your examples of Nidus and Baruuk also applies to Grendel. The armor basically accrues from ability usage just like those 2. The armor Grendel gets is just as ability exclusive as Nidus stacks or Baruuk restraint, yet you consider those 2 passives actual passives while you also consider Grendel's not of the same category.

It's odd that your logic doesn't stay the same for those, that's what I was pointing out.

It's annoying and aggravating for having the reiterate a point that people apparently don't want to accept. DE said there's an energy drain for every enemy you have swallowed. You get armor per enemy swallowed, which means you technically have an active energy drain on your own passive. The only way you can swallow people is with abilities. Absolutely none of that spells passive, that is all tied exclusively to the abilities, and even further than that, has an active energy drain to it.
Nidus' does not have an active energy drain, and it does not activate on an ability cast. The mutation stack is a mechanic exclusive to him and does generate through abilties, yes, but the passive is activated by dying. Dying is definitely a universal character action.
Baruuk's passive is a damage reduction as his Restraint is worn. Taking damage is definitely a universal character action.

A passive should be a unique augment to a universal character action. Some of these passives are generated through ability casts, some of these passives are created after an ability cast, but ability casts in general are not exclusive to a single frame. The powers themselves are, and attaching "passives" to powers is, for all intents and purposes, not a real passive.

Ash inflicting a Slash proc = universal
Atlas resisting knockdowns while touching the ground = universal
Banshee firing a gun = universal
Baruuk receiving damage reduction = universal, but is an exception that it builds it through ability use. But all frames "use abilities", it isn't explicitly tied to Baruuk's abilities themselves.
Chroma's kit effects changing because of his color = would be universal except now he's locked out of 3/4s of the capabilities for his 1/2/4. Not a proper passive if it outright affects his abilities like this.
Ember gaining energy generation and ability strength on self Heat procs = universal, but still kind of a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ passive since there are so few reliable ways to set yourself on fire, leaving it to the RNG of the map, or the enemies you face.
Equinox having an innate Equilibrium effect for picking up health and energy orbs = universal
Excalibur using the swords, dual swords, nikanas, two handed nikanas, and rapiers = universal
Umbra's sentience passive = universal, because anyone at that point can enter Operator mode
Frost freezing enemies who melee him = universal
Gara randomly blinding enemies while she's in light = universal, though in concept it would be situational. But DE has apparently designed maps consciously establishing which areas are dark or light, so it works.
Garuda gaining more damage as she has lower health = universal
Harrow having a higher overshield limit = universal
Hildryn's shield gate and health protection while under overshields = universal
Hydroid spawning tentacles on ground slams = universal
Inaros being able to consume enemies to escape bleed out = universal
Ivara having innate Enemy Radar = universal
Khora having a movement speed buff while Venari is alive = universal. Venari being a separate entity and her respawn = not universal
Limbo entering the Rift is technically universal since it's tied to rolling, which anyone can do. Either way, the energy regen while in the Rift and gaining 10 energy on kill is not universal because it requires the Rift mechanic to exist which comes from Limbo's abilities ( for enemies and allies ).
Loki having infinite wall latch duration = universal
Mag pulling in loot on bullet jumps = universal
Mesa receiving a small health buff when having no melee equipped, and having a reload/fire rate buff on handguns and dual handguns = universal
Mirage performing Maneuvers quicker and having improved slide duration = universal
Nekros gaining health from the deaths of nearby enemies = universal
Nezha having improved sliding = universal
Nidus defying death = universal, but unique in that it is tied to successful ability hits and his exclusive Mutation mechanic itself. The mechanic is not a proper passive, and the increase in damage to Virulence and Ravenous Maggots aren't either. His altered rank bonuses are though.
Nova creating a knockdown AoE when she is knocked down = universal
Nyx having an innate Evasion debuff on enemies targetting her = universal
Oberon having a free instant revive for pet companions = universal
Octavia giving energy regen to all those near on her ability cast = universal, as any frame can cast abilities. It isn't tied exclusive to her specific abilities.
Revenant creating an AoE knockdown on losing shields, and being immune to the Magnetic procs from land based water on the Plains of Eidolon = universal, but Mesmer Skin being immune to several Eidolon attacks is not
Rhino having an innate Heavy Impact effect = universal
Saryn having an innate Status Duration increase = universal
Titania having higher Bullet Jump and Rolling mobility, and creating trampolines on bullet jumps = universal
Trinity having a faster base revive speed = universal
Valkyr having an increase to her base knockdown recovery = universal
Vauban doing more damage to incapacitated enemies = universal
Volt generating bonus Electrical damage to his attacks by moving = universal
Wisp being invisible in the air while not attacking = universal
Wukong defying death and being given bonuses = universal
Zephyr having a lower gravity = universal
And of course the Prime passive for gaining energy by touching Death Orbs is universal, since any Prime can walk up to said structure.

[jojokaizer]

Escrito originalmente por Something Something Watermelons:

Escrito originalmente por talkingmute:

You're usually a cool guy on these forums, why are you getting bent out of shape?

I'm just saying your examples of Nidus and Baruuk also applies to Grendel. The armor basically accrues from ability usage just like those 2. The armor Grendel gets is just as ability exclusive as Nidus stacks or Baruuk restraint, yet you consider those 2 passives actual passives while you also consider Grendel's not of the same category.

It's odd that your logic doesn't stay the same for those, that's what I was pointing out.

It's annoying and aggravating for having the reiterate a point that people apparently don't want to accept. DE said there's an energy drain for every enemy you have swallowed. You get armor per enemy swallowed, which means you technically have an active energy drain on your own passive. The only way you can swallow people is with abilities. Absolutely none of that spells passive, that is all tied exclusively to the abilities, and even further than that, has an active energy drain to it.
Nidus' does not have an active energy drain, and it does not activate on an ability cast. The mutation stack is a mechanic exclusive to him and does generate through abilties, yes, but the passive is activated by dying. Dying is definitely a universal character action.
Baruuk's passive is a damage reduction as his Restraint is worn. Taking damage is definitely a universal character action.

A passive should be a unique augment to a universal character action. Some of these passives are generated through ability casts, some of these passives are created after an ability cast, but ability casts in general are not exclusive to a single frame. The powers themselves are, and attaching "passives" to powers is, for all intents and purposes, not a real passive.

Ash inflicting a Slash proc = universal
Atlas resisting knockdowns while touching the ground = universal
Banshee firing a gun = universal
Baruuk receiving damage reduction = universal, but is an exception that it builds it through ability use. But all frames "use abilities", it isn't explicitly tied to Baruuk's abilities themselves.
Chroma's kit effects changing because of his color = would be universal except now he's locked out of 3/4s of the capabilities for his 1/2/4. Not a good passive.
Ember gaining energy generation and ability strength on self Heat procs = universal, but still kind of a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ passive since there are so few reliable ways to set yourself on fire, leaving it to the RNG of the map, or the enemies you face.
Equinox having an innate Equilibrium effect for picking up health and energy orbs = universal
Excalibur using the swords, dual swords, nikanas, two handed nikanas, and rapiers = universal
Frost freezing enemies who melee him = universal
Gara randomly blinding enemies while she's in light = universal, though in concept it would be situation. But DE has apparently designed maps consciously around being in dark or light, so it works.
Garuda gaining more damage as she has lower health = universal
Harrow having a higher overshield limit = universal
Hildryn's shield gate and health protection while under overshields = universal
Hydroid spawning tentacles on ground slams = universal
Inaros being able to consume enemies to escape bleed out = universal
Ivara having innate Enemy Radar = universal
Khora having a movement speed buff while Venari is alive = universal. Venari being a separate entity and her respawn = not universal
Limbo entering the Rift is technically universal since it's tied to rolling, which anyone can do. Either way, the energy regen while in the Rift is absolutely universal since all frames can benefit from it, but receiving 10 energy on killing an enemy in the Rift is not universal since it is tied to the abilities to send them there in the first place.
Loki having infinite wall latch duration = universal
Mag pulling in loot on bullet jumps = universal
Mesa receiving a small health buff when having no melee equipped, and having a reload/fire rate buff on handguns and dual handguns = universal
Mirage performing Maneuvers quicker and having improved slide duration = universal
Nekros gaining health from the deaths of nearby enemies = universal
Nezha having improved sliding = universal
Nidus defying death = universal, but unique in that it is tied to successful ability hits and his exclusive Mutation mechanic itself. The mechanic is not a proper passive, and the increase in damage to Virulence and Ravenous Maggots aren't either. His altered rank bonuses are though.
Nova creating a knockdown AoE when she is knocked down = universal
Nyx having an innate Evasion debuff on enemies targetting her = universal
Oberon having a free instant revive for pet companions = universal
Octavia giving energy regen to all those near on her ability cast = universal, as any frame can cast abilities. It isn't tied exclusive to her specific abilities.
Revenant creating an AoE knockdown on losing shields, and being immune to the Magnetic procs from land based water on the Plains of Eidolon = universal, but Mesmer Skin being immune to several Eidolon attacks is not
Rhino having an innate Heavy Impact effect = universal
Saryn having an innate Status Duration increase = universal
Titania having higher Bullet Jump and Rolling mobility, and creating trampolines on bullet jumps = universal
Trinity having a faster base revive speed = universal
Valkyr having an increase to her base knockdown recovery = universal
Vauban doing more damage to incapacitated enemies = universal
Volt generating bonus Electrical damage to his attacks by moving = universal
Wisp being invisible in the air while not attacking = universal
Wukong defying death and being given bonuses = universal
Zephyr having a lower gravity = universal

what the hell are you even arguing about? any ability or skill can be a passive. there are plenty of passives in that list that requires conditions. it's not the passive of grendel that's draining energy. it's most likely the skill itself that is draining. the passive bonus armor activates with the condition of him having eaten enemies. they decided not to make this an augment and just a passive for the frame. WHAT IS WRONG with that? now there's more potential for better augments. if anything this is a good thing. instead of frames having utterly useless passives. we can now actually have something useful.

[talkingmute]

-And I'm just saying that when you're comparing it to Nidus and Baruuk (both of which require ability uses for their passives) that Grendel's is different and isn't a passive, it just sounds ridiculous.

You said "No, because in order to access the passive, you need to perform an ability. Otherwise, it cannot be used at all, whatsoever.", However it's the same for Nidus and Baruuk. You can't access Nidus's or Barkuuk's passives without using abilities.

I'm just pointing out how selective your presented logic seems to be.

[peppermint hollows]

Escrito originalmente por Miro Laaksonen:

Escrito originalmente por peppermint hollows:

How dare people criticise the game! It's so ridiculous!! Like just don't be mad bro? :D

I mean of course you can criticize the game, but I really don't see how that particular criticism matters. It's practically just a semantic argument, I highly doubt that affects anyone's enjoyment of the game in any way :P

It's not really a semantic argument if you actually paid attention to the conversation on the thread instead of just making non-contributions. This has been about passives more from a balance stand point, not a semantic standpoint of "what is/should be a passive?" but even if it was, it doesn't make it a worthless conversation. Passives ultimately are part of a Warframe's balance, and there is absolutely no reason to want or be okay with weak/useless passives.

[Watermelons]

Escrito originalmente por talkingmute:

-And I'm just saying that when you're comparing it to Nidus and Baruuk (both of which require ability uses for their passives) that Grendel's is different and isn't a passive, it just sounds ridiculous.

You said "No, because in order to access the passive, you need to perform an ability. Otherwise, it cannot be used at all, whatsoever.", However it's the same for Nidus and Baruuk. You can't access Nidus's or Barkuuk's passives without using abilities.

I'm just pointing out how selective your presented logic seems to be.

Reread the argument presented to you please, I'll reword it as precisely as I mean, because precision of language is important.

Nidus' passive is built up with ability use. Any and all Warframes use abilities. Separate the Mutation mechanic and make it simply built up by successful ability hits. The logic is if the ability, and the ability can be literally anything at all in this chain of logic, if it hits enough enemies, you are now allowed to cheat death once.
The death save is not accessed by an ability, and it certainly isn't exclusive to the specific abilities of the Warframe. It's just "if you hit things with an ability, it'll build up until you have enough to cheat death". Then actually accessing this passive comes by taking fatal damage. Taking fatal damage is not exclusive to any Warframe ability set, of course.
Casting an ability and hitting enemies with it, and dying, are not exclusive to the Warframe's moveset.
The same logic with Baruuk, separate the Restraint mechanic. You're just building up a damage resistance while casting successful abilities, and then draining that damage resistance while using the 4th ability. None of it is exclusive to the moveset of Baruuk, it's simply built up by him hitting with his abilities. The 4th ability could be anything, the other abilities could be anything, but the passive still works as it does. Hitting with the first three abilities builds up the damage resist, using the 4th drains it away.
And neither passives constantly drain your energy.

Go back to Grendel. Stripped down to the barest description, you're casting the 1 or 4 ability, now you're accessing your passive when you succeed. But your passive is draining your energy, and if you hold your 1 ability, it ends the passive. That makes no sense, it sounds like the passive is just a part of the 1st ability, or the 4th ability. The passive doesn't stick around if you don't have an ability active, nor can you not enable the passive without draining energy. The whole logic doesn't work if you're not using Grendel's moveset of swallowing and containing an enemy. Trying to describe it in at its core, you hit an enemy with an ability and they're now affected. The more enemies you have affected, the greater the passive. But at the cost of energy drain (seriously, this should be the deal breaker right here; energy drain is active, the complete opposite of passive). And this passive has nothing to do with anything else but two abilities. It's not tied to a universal action like simply the mere act of casting an ability, or dying, or taking damage.

Let me go back to Limbo, because he's half and half. His "passive" of energy regen and energy on kills in the Rift is not a real passive because it relies entirely on the Rift to exist. If it were only a constant regen or on kill reward, then it would be. The Rift and those two energy related things are not a passive, they are his unique mechanic like Restraint or Mutations. But dodging and becoming invincible to a specific degree is a passive. Everyone can roll dodge. Hell, anyone can gain a specific degree of invincibility when rolling with Rolling Guard.
Khora's movement speed buff I'm actually only halfway on, because it relies on Venari, but it could still be stripped down to "passive movement buff that does not drain energy, but can go away through circumstances, but will always come back. With or without your participation."

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ I write a lot of words. I haven't even been at the computer all day, this has all just been in bursts.

[talkingmute]

Word for word, replacing Grendel for Nidus:

Grendel's passive is built up with ability use. Any and all Warframes use abilities. Separate the devour mechanic and make it simply built up by successful ability hits. The logic is if the ability, and the ability can be literally anything at all in this chain of logic, if it hits enemies, you now have increased armor.

[Watermelons]

Escrito originalmente por talkingmute:

Word for word, replacing Grendel for Nidus:

Grendel's passive is built up with ability use. Any and all Warframes use abilities. Separate the devour mechanic and make it simply built up by successful ability hits. The logic is if the ability, and the ability can be literally anything at all in this chain of logic, if it hits enemies, you now have increased armor.

Let's ignore the keyword >>>active<<< energy drain entirely then...
Or the extremely precise breakdown of the difference between "casting abilities" which all frames do, and "casting those specific abilities and relying on how they function".

I think I've made several heavily detailed explanations over those. If you're simply not going to read them, and I think you should because it isn't even about trying to be right over you but instead just establishing what I believe to be fair distinctions, and are going to continue to repeat things while ignoring my points, then there's no need to continue the conversation. And lord knows I'm going to stop continuing to write essays on the matter, I should find or make better uses of my time, as scarce as they are currently.

[Sterling]

Escrito originalmente por Something Something Watermelons:

And lord knows I'm going to stop continuing to write essays on the matter, I should find or make better uses of my time, as scarce as they are currently.

I'm half-surprised no one complained about the paragraphs being over two sentences long and advised you to press enter twice every two lines for "muh readability".

[talkingmute]

Escrito originalmente por Something Something Watermelons:

Escrito originalmente por talkingmute:

Word for word, replacing Grendel for Nidus:

Grendel's passive is built up with ability use. Any and all Warframes use abilities. Separate the devour mechanic and make it simply built up by successful ability hits. The logic is if the ability, and the ability can be literally anything at all in this chain of logic, if it hits enemies, you now have increased armor.

Let's ignore the keyword >>>active<<< energy drain entirely then...
Or the extremely precise breakdown of the difference between "casting abilities" which all frames do, and "casting those specific abilities and relying on how they function".

I think I've made several heavily detailed explanations over those. If you're simply not going to read them, and I think you should because it isn't even about trying to be right over you but instead just establishing what I believe to be fair distinctions, and are going to continue to repeat things while ignoring my points, then there's no need to continue the conversation. And lord knows I'm going to stop continuing to write essays on the matter, I should find or make better uses of my time, as scarce as they are currently.

I'm just arguing your inconsistency that Nidus getting stacks is a passive, Baruuk depleting a meter is a passive, but Grendel's armor isn't a passive. Hell, Grendel basically gets it exactly in the same manner as Nidus.

- Before you say it's the avoiding death as Nidus, it's based on stacks that required ability usage.
- Also before you say that Grendel's isn't a passive because of energy drain, I think it's safe to assume it's not a channeled ability (as in it seems that you can still gain energy outside of orbs while having the armor stacks).

An ability that let's you get stacks the same way Nidus gets stacks while also isn't a channeled ability (assuming), seems like a passive ability for the frame as it no other frame can do it.

[Miro Laaksonen]

Escrito originalmente por peppermint hollows:

Escrito originalmente por Miro Laaksonen:

I mean of course you can criticize the game, but I really don't see how that particular criticism matters. It's practically just a semantic argument, I highly doubt that affects anyone's enjoyment of the game in any way :P

It's not really a semantic argument if you actually paid attention to the conversation on the thread instead of just making non-contributions. This has been about passives more from a balance stand point, not a semantic standpoint of "what is/should be a passive?" but even if it was, it doesn't make it a worthless conversation. Passives ultimately are part of a Warframe's balance, and there is absolutely no reason to want or be okay with weak/useless passives.

I mean... they barely are. Sure some of them are actually meaningful and affect how it feels like to play the Warframe, but most of them are so minor and forgettable they have only very little or nothing at all to do with how good the Warframe is. If the Warframe is perfectly balanced with having really good abilities and a meaningless passive, it's still balanced.
And you can't possibly discuss Grendel's balance in any meaningful way before knowing the numbers behind his abilities and how they actually play out anyway. You have absolutely no idea how balanced Grendel is yet.

[peppermint hollows]

Escrito originalmente por Miro Laaksonen:

I mean... they barely are. Sure some of them are actually meaningful and affect how it feels like to play the Warframe, but most of them are so minor and forgettable they have only very little or nothing at all to do with how good the Warframe is. If the Warframe is perfectly balanced with having really good abilities and a meaningless passive, it's still balanced.
And you can't possibly discuss Grendel's balance in any meaningful way before knowing the numbers behind his abilities and how they actually play out anyway. You have absolutely no idea how balanced Grendel is yet.

I don't think the discussion was ever about whether a Warframe is still balanced even if it has a meaningless passive. But if so many Warframes have useless passives, what's the point in having them? Actually give them some purpose, or don't have them at all. It'd be like if every Warframe in the game got a new 5th ability, but only some of them actually did something.

[peppermint hollows]

Escrito originalmente por NITRO:

No one gonna mention how Zephyr's passive is an actual negative modifier in nightmare missions and sorties and ESO?

I actually can't stand playing Zephyr because of her passive, it honestly just makes it so annoying to play her for me.