Gratz on the Wukong nerf, DE!

[Inogine]

Now he has two useless native skills that don't really serve a purpose at anything but low level. Hail the new low level king. (Yes. Two and three will still carry and anything that carries a gun can still make it through based on that merit alone, but that doesn't change that the nerf was a harder hit to the frame than needed.)

Murdered AOE weapons. Yes you can somewhat work around them, but killing weapon diversity just to bring everything into the garbage isn't what I'd call an improvement. Bring my boys up rather than bringing them down.

As for Wukong, his clone's back to being a pure gimmick. There's a few certain instances you can throw onto him, but I see you noticed that with battery weapons and nerfed them almost silently too. A mention or two from what I've seen by dev responses. Good job.

So you nerfed the damage. Alright, fine. Can still make status work. Then you nerfed the ammo by making the clone use it up. Oh he can pick it up when he needs to right? (Yeah, something that was mentioned as being a thing) Wrong. Aside from wallblasting your entire ammo pool into oblivion as the clone targeting has never been what I'd call great at even a passing glance and they have a hardon for shooting into cover when their targeting tries to hit something they actually have no clear line of sight of...

No. No the clone doesn't go to pick up ammo. I watched. *I* pick up the ammo, but the clone'll stand there dumbly with ammo in plain sight in front of me just out of vacuum range. 10/10 feature creep, but then I don't expect much to work out of the box with these updates anymore... or ever in a lot of cases cause it's been proven that balancing isn't really a care or desire either.

So now not only does the clone hit like a wet noodle that might as well not be there, it blasts through your ammo missing targets with single shot weapons, shotguns, or generally anything not AOE which made up for it somewhat. AOE nerf. So now that's not really an option either... So let's slap a Fulmin or battery weap-oh yeah you nerfed those too. Weapons you don't even see too much of get hit again. Really upping that diversity guys. At least the damage is there if not the capacity.

Point is, this isn't some competitive shooter. I haven't seen anything other than what I'd call a minority even trying to say the PvP is great. This is a PvE based game and to pretend otherwise is taking the piss. Let people play the way they want. Give us options rather than taking away said options. If you really wanna "balance" things, perhaps look at why they're working better compared to stuff that's been left in the dust since the start. Like, you know... The Braton. Skana... Hell ANY starter weapon, gun or melee.

I don't wanna sit and sweat my ass off for every single kill in a game about grinding countless numbers of the same exact mission to get a single part against actual hordes of enemies that'll bullet sponge you into boredom with anything except high end gear. Sometimes I wanna chill. Don't blame me for not playing the game the way others want. Give me that option much as they have the option to play the way they want. Never had a problem using non-AOE weapons either. Some of those are my favorite despite being hilariously under powered these days. One handed Lex comes to mind. Stadavar. Baza. Latron. The list is endless, but you let those languish in low to mid-tier and bringing others into the garbage heap with them does not make them anymore relevant.

Over-all. Another disappointment of a balance and there's still not a point to using some of my favorite weapons for any reason other than a meme... Only now that some other weapons get to join them in the pile along with another frame being shifted lower.

[Inogine]

Wukong is common. But I certainly haven't seen 4 wukongs in a single game in quite some time. Often I don't even notice who my partners are in a game... I'm just kinda focused on fast clearing. Be the one of the AOE frames rushing ahead of me during an elimination or farming frames converting bodies in survival.

That chart's ONE part of the equation. You'd like to think that tells the whole picture, but it only shows how short sighted a vast majority of people are. How many of those are aborts? How many are failures? How many people were actually active in a game? How many actually made REAL use of the clone? That stat doesn't show any of that. It's one metric and it's the same way DE's always handled it. It's why they're looking at that metric now and thinking they've hit upon the golden unicorn bullet while many PRIMES are still nearly completely unused for anything other than fodder. It's smoke and mirrors and driving up the hate boners many users have when they feel they could shine just a little more if that DAMNED FRAME WASN'T IN MY WAY!

Truth be told, those guns feel bad cause well... Maybe YOU didn't aim. When I wanna use single target guns... I use'em. When I wanna pull out old frost... I do. Nothing's stopping that. No amount of wukongs have stopped me from contributing and you're certainly not losing anything from them being present unless you just actually hate playing with people and don't yet know why. Only thing I can think of.

Righteous Steel eredeti hozzászólása:

You shouldn't be able to bring a spy warframe into every other mission type and mop the floor while your double does all the work. They showed that kind of play style live on stream and I think I speak for many when I say that "playing the game" should have a little more to it I think.

Ivara and her bow would like a word with you. Good at just about any content you want. invisible whenever. Bow does insane damage. Good at spies, defenses, eliminations (though AOE ability frames tend to do faster clears), interceptions, assassinations, and well, kinda a jack of all trades. All you gotta do is level you crosshair in the general direction and hold the trigger for a moment before releasing. The multishot takes care of the rest.

Mesa has a literal god tier aimbot that's way more accurate than Wukong's clone. You literally just spin your view. Do I need to mention what scenarios that could be good at?

Limbo has a dome that currently is king at defense and is invincible whenever he wants to be everywhere else.

Inaros is basically a "don't die" frame. Bring what you want to the party in that case.

Any frame can be made to work pretty well at nearly anything barring a few sad cases where the frame is just a literal worse variant of another. Should EVERYTHING get a nerf then?

[Inogine]

Erei eredeti hozzászólása:

It's not even that. Pablo said he know that but *don't want to "nerf the fun". So they didn't nerf the cloud or anything but the clone. The problem was how wukong play itself.*The clone was literally better than the player, with its auto aiming, target snapping and unlimited ammo.

Wukong is still good at everything and uber strong. But you can't have it as a bramma turret with unlimited ammo anymore.

Some people found that to be fun. But ey, ♥♥♥♥ them right?

[wavel54]

Righteous Steel eredeti hozzászólása:

But isn't that the point? Wukong was good at everything. Too good. He was and might still be the best Spy frame by far, his abilities allowed him to cheese survival missions, he was excellent at every other mission type, and his 3x down invulnerability & i-frames are incredible.

Other warframes you mentioned like Mag, Excalibur, Titania, Nidus, Nekros, Limbos, Ember or even Volt did not have the capabilities that Wukong had. There are strengths and weaknesses to every frame, many can be overcome by skill and build, but Wukong was on a whole other level.

Wukong didn't need skill to compensate for weaknesses. He can be downed 3 times and not bleed out. He fully replaces Loki's kit, his double was like bringing a teammate with infinite ammo and aimbot on demand. Plus he's fast, & he's accessible from dojos to build.

DE clearly didn't view that as being balanced, and I think many people understand why.

DE is a business. They want to make money, and that means they are going to create diversity for profit. Whether we like it or not, DE saw 50% of players playing Wukong for everything and decided that didn't make sense.

Out of 50 warframes, half of the player base was using 1 warframe for everything. IMHO, it doesn't come down to preference at that point, it comes down to money and build diversity. DE wants to give incentive to people to use warframes for specific things, not give you one warframe that dominates at everything.

You shouldn't be able to bring a spy warframe into every other mission type and mop the floor while your double does all the work. They showed that kind of play style live on stream and I think I speak for many when I say that "playing the game" should have a little more to it I think.

Agreed

[Zappli]

Go play afk arena if you really love being a braindead zombie.

[Nibbie]

Inogine eredeti hozzászólása:

Erei eredeti hozzászólása:

It's not even that. Pablo said he know that but *don't want to "nerf the fun". So they didn't nerf the cloud or anything but the clone. The problem was how wukong play itself.*The clone was literally better than the player, with its auto aiming, target snapping and unlimited ammo.

Wukong is still good at everything and uber strong. But you can't have it as a bramma turret with unlimited ammo anymore.

Some people found that to be fun. But ey, ♥♥♥♥ them right?

And many, many other people didn't find that fun. Should they be ignored?

[IvoryTemplar]

Inogine eredeti hozzászólása:

Now he has two useless native skills that don't really serve a purpose at anything but low level. Hail the new low level king. (Yes. Two and three will still carry and anything that carries a gun can still make it through based on that merit alone, but that doesn't change that the nerf was a harder hit to the frame than needed.)

Murdered AOE weapons. Yes you can somewhat work around them, but killing weapon diversity just to bring everything into the garbage isn't what I'd call an improvement. Bring my boys up rather than bringing them down.

As for Wukong, his clone's back to being a pure gimmick. There's a few certain instances you can throw onto him, but I see you noticed that with battery weapons and nerfed them almost silently too. A mention or two from what I've seen by dev responses. Good job.

So you nerfed the damage. Alright, fine. Can still make status work. Then you nerfed the ammo by making the clone use it up. Oh he can pick it up when he needs to right? (Yeah, something that was mentioned as being a thing) Wrong. Aside from wallblasting your entire ammo pool into oblivion as the clone targeting has never been what I'd call great at even a passing glance and they have a hardon for shooting into cover when their targeting tries to hit something they actually have no clear line of sight of...

No. No the clone doesn't go to pick up ammo. I watched. *I* pick up the ammo, but the clone'll stand there dumbly with ammo in plain sight in front of me just out of vacuum range. 10/10 feature creep, but then I don't expect much to work out of the box with these updates anymore... or ever in a lot of cases cause it's been proven that balancing isn't really a care or desire either.

So now not only does the clone hit like a wet noodle that might as well not be there, it blasts through your ammo missing targets with single shot weapons, shotguns, or generally anything not AOE which made up for it somewhat. AOE nerf. So now that's not really an option either... So let's slap a Fulmin or battery weap-oh yeah you nerfed those too. Weapons you don't even see too much of get hit again. Really upping that diversity guys. At least the damage is there if not the capacity.

Point is, this isn't some competitive shooter. I haven't seen anything other than what I'd call a minority even trying to say the PvP is great. This is a PvE based game and to pretend otherwise is taking the piss. Let people play the way they want. Give us options rather than taking away said options. If you really wanna "balance" things, perhaps look at why they're working better compared to stuff that's been left in the dust since the start. Like, you know... The Braton. Skana... Hell ANY starter weapon, gun or melee.

I don't wanna sit and sweat my ass off for every single kill in a game about grinding countless numbers of the same exact mission to get a single part against actual hordes of enemies that'll bullet sponge you into boredom with anything except high end gear. Sometimes I wanna chill. Don't blame me for not playing the game the way others want. Give me that option much as they have the option to play the way they want. Never had a problem using non-AOE weapons either. Some of those are my favorite despite being hilariously under powered these days. One handed Lex comes to mind. Stadavar. Baza. Latron. The list is endless, but you let those languish in low to mid-tier and bringing others into the garbage heap with them does not make them anymore relevant.

Over-all. Another disappointment of a balance and there's still not a point to using some of my favorite weapons for any reason other than a meme... Only now that some other weapons get to join them in the pile along with another frame being shifted lower.

I need the TL;DR for this because you typed a lot of nothing worth reading.

[Spartykins]

he's not pre buff vauban at least

papery and only good for the 3

[:3]

Spartykins eredeti hozzászólása:

papery and only good for the 3

and his 4

[DudeBro69]

Mr. Smiles eredeti hozzászólása:

Wukong had a 55% global use rate.

That's over half of all players playing wukong over everything else.

He deserved it.

So by that reasoning, if people like something snatch it away from them.

Hmm makes sense.

[Spirit]

Mr. Smiles eredeti hozzászólása:

Wukong had a 55% global use rate.

That's over half of all players playing wukong over everything else.

He deserved it.

well , i have wukong prime and still prefer protea or wisp over everything else

[Righteous Steel]

Inogine eredeti hozzászólása:

Ivara and her bow would like a word with you. Good at just about any content you want. invisible whenever. Bow does insane damage. Good at spies, defenses, eliminations (though AOE ability frames tend to do faster clears), interceptions, assassinations, and well, kinda a jack of all trades. All you gotta do is level you crosshair in the general direction and hold the trigger for a moment before releasing. The multishot takes care of the rest.

Mesa has a literal god tier aimbot that's way more accurate than Wukong's clone. You literally just spin your view. Do I need to mention what scenarios that could be good at?

Limbo has a dome that currently is king at defense and is invincible whenever he wants to be everywhere else.

Inaros is basically a "don't die" frame. Bring what you want to the party in that case.

Any frame can be made to work pretty well at nearly anything barring a few sad cases where the frame is just a literal worse variant of another. Should EVERYTHING get a nerf then?

I feel like a lot of people agree with you because of these comparisons, but it doesn't add up. We aren't strictly talking about aimbot, power, invisibility or even how good a warframe is across all modes, we are talking about autonomous domination & profitability in conjunction with versatility. Something that was particularly relevant to Wukong.

If a warframe allows players to stand there and do virtually nothing, then the skill roof goes way down, and the incentive for players to buy things goes down with it. (Why buy anything else when Wukong runs it on autopilot?)

If a warframe is decent at every mode, that doesn't necessarily warrant a nerf, but Wukong was certainly a special case to behold.

You're absolutely right that they shouldn't nerf something just because it is powerful, but we have to look at these nerfs & changes in full context.

Even with the examples you gave with Mesa, Limbo, Ivara, and even Inaros, all of those warframes are not run on autopilot like Wukong was.

You still have to aim, you still have to move depending on the mode, and you certainly have to manage ammo & energy. (That is even more true in light of the recent ammo changes)
Now, there are probably exceptions based on the node and kind of mission set you're running, but overall I think there are many players who agree that we are comparing apples to oranges. They might be fruit, but they are not the same.

Many warframes can be used in every single kind of mission, but the level of skill to use them, the inherent weaknesses, abilities, strengths, and acquisition of said warframes make comparing Wukong to anything else a highly subjective and complex topic. And again, on the topic of differences, none of them had a clone or the multifaceted invincibility like Wukong.

[jvjd]

Inogine eredeti hozzászólása:

Mr. Smiles eredeti hozzászólása:

Wukong had a 55% global use rate.

That's over half of all players playing wukong over everything else.

He deserved it.

People use Excalibur. Nerf it.

There's always gonna be a preference that might be more accepted by folks than the next. Something that generally more people find more fun. But because they don't play your way it should be nerfed?

If 55 % uses Excalibur or any other frame then they will nerf that as well.

Players take the least path of resistance like go afk while casting banshee 4 - got nerfed
Trinity jumping explosive hell - nerfed
so on so forth for more than 7 years

Your feedback is welcome But never expect the most popular method to not get nerfed- you would be fool and always be a fool if you think that will change ever

[PR PUNISHER]

Righteous Steel eredeti hozzászólása:

Inogine eredeti hozzászólása:

I don't wanna sit and sweat my ass off for every single kill in a game about grinding countless numbers of the same exact mission to get a single part against actual hordes of enemies that'll bullet sponge you into boredom with anything except high end gear. Sometimes I wanna chill. Don't blame me for not playing the game the way others want.

I think a lot of players agree with you, but this doesn't make DE money, and it doesn't encourage variety. In fact, this is probably a big reason Wukong and AOE got nerfed. DE wants you to get frustrated with the grind and pay money. They want you on the Prime subscription and buying platinum to use on the market or free market. That is their business model.

It isn't about play style, it is about how players interact with the game and how they get rewards. Especially in regard to higher difficulty modes where the loot tables are substantially more profitable. They weren't meant to be easy. A great example of this game style is Destiny 2 or The Division series. People run missions over and over again to get a specific kind of loot.

This and they need to appease to their china communist masters at tencent.....

[wavel54]

Righteous Steel eredeti hozzászólása:

Inogine eredeti hozzászólása:

Ivara and her bow would like a word with you. Good at just about any content you want. invisible whenever. Bow does insane damage. Good at spies, defenses, eliminations (though AOE ability frames tend to do faster clears), interceptions, assassinations, and well, kinda a jack of all trades. All you gotta do is level you crosshair in the general direction and hold the trigger for a moment before releasing. The multishot takes care of the rest.

Mesa has a literal god tier aimbot that's way more accurate than Wukong's clone. You literally just spin your view. Do I need to mention what scenarios that could be good at?

Limbo has a dome that currently is king at defense and is invincible whenever he wants to be everywhere else.

Inaros is basically a "don't die" frame. Bring what you want to the party in that case.

Any frame can be made to work pretty well at nearly anything barring a few sad cases where the frame is just a literal worse variant of another. Should EVERYTHING get a nerf then?

I feel like a lot of people agree with you because of these comparisons, but it doesn't add up. We aren't strictly talking about aimbot, power, invisibility or even how good a warframe is across all modes, we are talking about autonomous domination & profitability in conjunction with versatility. Something that was particularly relevant to Wukong.

If a warframe allows players to stand there and do virtually nothing, then the skill roof goes way down, and the incentive for players to buy things goes down with it. (Why buy anything else when Wukong runs it on autopilot?)

If a warframe is decent at every mode, that doesn't necessarily warrant a nerf, but Wukong was certainly a special case to behold.

You're absolutely right that they shouldn't nerf something just because it is powerful, but we have to look at these nerfs & changes in full context.

Even with the examples you gave with Mesa, Limbo, Ivara, and even Inaros, all of those warframes are not run on autopilot like Wukong was.

You still have to aim, you still have to move depending on the mode, and you certainly have to manage ammo & energy. (That is even more true in light of the recent ammo changes)
Now, there are probably exceptions based on the node and kind of mission set you're running, but overall I think there are many players who agree that we are comparing apples to oranges. They might be fruit, but they are not the same.

Many warframes can be used in every single kind of mission, but the level of skill to use them, the inherent weaknesses, abilities, strengths, and acquisition of said warframes make comparing Wukong to anything else a highly subjective and complex topic. And again, on the topic of differences, none of them had a clone or the multifaceted invincibility like Wukong.

This is the logical conclusion. No argument can address this and advance past it.

Let's be real that ivara comparison ain't it, she does not have the versatility.

Ofcourse a lot of people will be angry- cause 55% of you were maining him lmfaoooo

Too many people use him cause he was autopilot and powerful. So they'd afk with him, stuff like that. If you're playing normally a bot at half damage can still be powerful. Just spawn a specter if you're unhappy.

[Inogine]

Righteous Steel eredeti hozzászólása:

I feel like a lot of people agree with you because of these comparisons, but it doesn't add up. We aren't strictly talking about aimbot, power, invisibility or even how good a warframe is across all modes, we are talking about autonomous domination & profitability in conjunction with versatility. Something that was particularly relevant to Wukong.

If a warframe allows players to stand there and do virtually nothing, then the skill roof goes way down, and the incentive for players to buy things goes down with it. (Why buy anything else when Wukong runs it on autopilot?)

If a warframe is decent at every mode, that doesn't necessarily warrant a nerf, but Wukong was certainly a special case to behold.

You're absolutely right that they shouldn't nerf something just because it is powerful, but we have to look at these nerfs & changes in full context.

Even with the examples you gave with Mesa, Limbo, Ivara, and even Inaros, all of those warframes are not run on autopilot like Wukong was.

You still have to aim, you still have to move depending on the mode, and you certainly have to manage ammo & energy. (That is even more true in light of the recent ammo changes)
Now, there are probably exceptions based on the node and kind of mission set you're running, but overall I think there are many players who agree that we are comparing apples to oranges. They might be fruit, but they are not the same.

Many warframes can be used in every single kind of mission, but the level of skill to use them, the inherent weaknesses, abilities, strengths, and acquisition of said warframes make comparing Wukong to anything else a highly subjective and complex topic. And again, on the topic of differences, none of them had a clone or the multifaceted invincibility like Wukong.

He's not an auto-pilot though? Perhaps ya'll just never looked at how the clone was aiming cause he's never been accurate. Keep in mind, if you give no input, your clone and any spectres stop doing anything. Or perhaps you just want to ignore that bit to justify hatred against a frame cause you use another? You literally can't auto-pilot in the game. People like to think you can, but you really can't short of using an actual bot.

You also have to aim to kill anything with Wukong.. Or heaven forbid you hit a button... Like every other frame. Clone kills stuff but it's not much different than say hitting 4 and letting an AOE frame do it's thing. Little movement for energy and do it all over again. Cause remember, no movement means nothing happening except your clone taking a seat. You didn't solve the AFK problem you think there is with this nerf. Other frames can easily do it too as you'll soon see. This is nothing new.

All I'm equating with my other post is that those frames can easily be OP too with VERY little work. Dominating at what? Killing bots? Heaven forbid that's the case in a horde shooter (No matter how much DE wishes it wasn't that.). If you're not dominating them then that'sa you problem. Single shots or not, the weapons that do damage can easily keep the tides at bay. A few movement keys is just not that different to a little mouse wiggle that takes even less effort if you wanna go that route. I really don't move the mouse much to aim, it's not a grand sweeping flourishing action that separates wheat from chaff as a lot of people think is happening. Even less so on controllers. There will come a time when the content runs dry and unless they do pull out something significant in the game.. It's gonna die off. It's not an infinite well of money and you can take steps as a company that will slow that down.

Just not much point to a larger number of weapons and frames, not because the AOE or abilities are there but because they're actually weak or just weaker varients of another frame. Nerf to the frame or guns didn't change that. They're still weak.

What I really don't get is the celebration of having less options in a game all about grinding till you're numb. This isn't a skill game. If you're thinking that then well... I got no words. Take off your mods and tell me where the skill is there cause all it'd be then is an exorcise in cutting off your face to spite your nose cause it seems to me all the "hahah no skill" folks are literally just preaching what that inevitably is. If you want difficulty for difficulty's sake, do it. Nothing's stopping you.