Lavos feels like how a lot of Warframes should have been designed

[Acetango]

Impactful ability (nuke) behind a significant timer, with its cooldown and damage affected by the use of abilities/weapon procs.

Lavos doesn't need an unfathomable number of energy pizzas or a zenurik crutch to function.

Honestly I wish they would rework older frames off the energy teat now. Doesn't have to be even a large number of them, just more to allow players options outside of muh energy.

[Pakaku]

Cooldowns are the drawback, though, and I see Lavos has base cooldowns as long as 8-30 seconds. An energy bar also gives you some benefits like being able to spam an ability more often, and mods like the Augur set rely on energy consumption. So there are benefits to keeping at least parts of the energy bar mechanics around.

[Acetango]

Messaggio originale di Pakaku:

An energy bar also gives you some benefits like being able to spam an ability more often

Personally I find the ability to spam somewhat detrimental to gameplay, especially with caster frames. The majority of people just use zenurik/pizzas to spam abilities, just like with banshee. Is it efficient? Sure. It's also dull gameplay wise, and falls really close to the "press x to win" philosophy.

By moving a number of frames away from the energy bar and to something cool down based, more players would be eager to do something besides spamming their 4 or other relevant ability, not to mention make other trees more viable.

[No_Quarter]

Messaggio originale di Pakaku:

Cooldowns are the drawback

drawbacks are necessary for longevity of gameplay as playing around them requires player to invent them selves. No drawback is just muddy spam which gets boring real fast, just look at Warframe playebase how it falls off as soon as new content is completed.

Not saying Lavos' drawback is perfect and should be as is for every warframe, but lack of teasing and working for that ult makes ult less special and it ends up being boring.

[DLOZanma]

The only fault with Lavos's kit in my opinion is that his 3 has poo range regardless of how you mod him, in both travel and shocking distance. Duration too. And half the time it doesn't activate.

[Sceles]

Lavos is awful at SP content and at anything high lvl because his damage doesn't scale. Even with Roar, 10 stacks of viral and 5+ different statuses on every enemy at sight, he still fails to deal with SP enemies. His 1 is damage, 2 is meh movement and damage, 3 is cd reduction and damage, 4 is damage. His whole kit is focused around dealing damage in different ways, yet he can't even do it properly. Because he's completely damage focused even his utility value is low. He can rad and viral everything, but the same could be achieved in a number of ways, e.g. Panzer, which actually has great synergy with Lavos btw.

There are so many ways to restore energy in the game that getting around energy issues is pretty easy even without pizzas. Getting around Lavos' cooldowns isn't really possible, unless you manage to find some gimmicky way to pile up 20+ enemies for his 3. In most situations there aren't enough enemies for that. And the only ability that really benefits from this cd reduction is his 4, as his 1 and 2 already have short cds.

[Renkuya]

Messaggio originale di Sceles:

Lavos is awful at SP content and at anything high lvl because his damage doesn't scale. Even with Roar, 10 stacks of viral and 5+ different statuses on every enemy at sight, he still fails to deal with SP enemies. His 1 is damage, 2 is meh movement and damage, 3 is cd reduction and damage, 4 is damage. His whole kit is focused around dealing damage in different ways, yet he can't even do it properly. Because he's completely damage focused even his utility value is low. He can rad and viral everything, but the same could be achieved in a number of ways, e.g. Panzer, which actually has great synergy with Lavos btw.

There are so many ways to restore energy in the game that getting around energy issues is pretty easy even without pizzas. Getting around Lavos' cooldowns isn't really possible, unless you manage to find some gimmicky way to pile up 20+ enemies for his 3. In most situations there aren't enough enemies for that. And the only ability that really benefits from this cd reduction is his 4, as his 1 and 2 already have short cds.

I felt very much this way the little I used him. "Cool, 3 abilities that do damage!" and then "oh but all of them are worse than shooting people with a Lato? ew". that 30 second timer should allow them to let him be a true nuke frame. I mean, Voidrig can EASILY hit 700k-3m+ in an AoE and rapidly yet Lavos struggles to tickle enemies.

Also, that dash, what is that? You know how often I see anybody using ANY of the other dashes in game? Right next to never. Hey, I guess AoE stats procs are great though.. it's not like we have anything that can do that right?

[Acetango]

Messaggio originale di Sceles:

Lavos is awful at SP content and at anything high lvl because his damage doesn't scale. Even with Roar, 10 stacks of viral and 5+ different statuses on every enemy at sight, he still fails to deal with SP enemies. His 1 is damage, 2 is meh movement and damage, 3 is cd reduction and damage, 4 is damage. His whole kit is focused around dealing damage in different ways, yet he can't even do it properly. Because he's completely damage focused even his utility value is low. He can rad and viral everything, but the same could be achieved in a number of ways, e.g. Panzer, which actually has great synergy with Lavos btw.

There are so many ways to restore energy in the game that getting around energy issues is pretty easy even without pizzas. Getting around Lavos' cooldowns isn't really possible, unless you manage to find some gimmicky way to pile up 20+ enemies for his 3. In most situations there aren't enough enemies for that. And the only ability that really benefits from this cd reduction is his 4, as his 1 and 2 already have short cds.

Just went in to Mot to confirm that on solo you can easily put out 100k+ on a single target with his 4. In sessions with other players, that number can easily push over 400k on an AoE on a number of targets. The 4th is the primary damage.

3 is CD reduction, but more focused on giving procs along with the 2.

2 gives out procs with a lingering line AoE.

1 is for health vamping, minor damage application.

His kit is not focused on damage. How you play Lavos is what you'll get. You want utility? You're painting entire rooms with statuses. Without any reliance on energy, you can strip a room of shields, armor, and have them shooting each other. Want damage? Hit your 4 while that's going on and you've just cleaned house.

You don't even need to get around his cooldowns, since all except the 4th have cooldowns that are low anyways. I use the 30s (or less) to build statuses to amplify its damage and clear out anything that is hidden away by a nullifier or disruptor. Not to mention that 'getting around' energy requirements in the game is half the reason why it's boring to play with almost everyone, because they'll bring some nuker the majority of the time or hit E until their fingers bleed

Getting back to the point I wanted to get across, the point of my OP is that cooldowns with built in mechanics and abilities to reduce them wind up more entertaining than 444444444444444 energy dash/pizza 44444444444

[Zeddy]

I'd like them to mix it. I have no reason to use Photon Strike, but if it had a cooldown while Vauban's other abilities used energy then I'd have no reason not to use it.

[Pakaku]

Messaggio originale di Acetango:

Messaggio originale di Pakaku:

An energy bar also gives you some benefits like being able to spam an ability more often

Personally I find the ability to spam somewhat detrimental to gameplay, especially with caster frames. The majority of people just use zenurik/pizzas to spam abilities, just like with banshee. Is it efficient? Sure. It's also dull gameplay wise, and falls really close to the "press x to win" philosophy.

By moving a number of frames away from the energy bar and to something cool down based, more players would be eager to do something besides spamming their 4 or other relevant ability, not to mention make other trees more viable.

Not trying to say the cooldown is bad, just that without a cooldown you can cast them faster which is an advantage the old energy bar has.

It might be nice to have a buffer on some abilities that acts sort of like a cooldown, so for example, an Oberon could cast two or three Hallowed Grounds in a row before the cooldown kicks in, or have separate charges on their own cooldowns.

[SomoneSuspicious]

No thanks, I prefer "muh energy"

[MotherVicar]

Lavos is just another frame, boring af

hit something with a snake whip - khora
"whoosh" forward - hydroid / Revenant
send some projectile forward - Nova
Radial attack - Saryn / Equinox / Gauss / Mag / Nezha / Oberon / Rhino /

I know I know, hard to be original after so many frames but man, it really really reaaaally feels like just another frame.

[No_Quarter]

Messaggio originale di Zone Dymo:

Lavos is just another frame, boring af

hit something with a snake whip - khora
"whoosh" forward - hydroid / Revenant
send some projectile forward - Nova
Radial attack - Saryn / Equinox / Gauss / Mag / Nezha / Oberon / Rhino /

I know I know, hard to be original after so many frames but man, it really really reaaaally feels like just another frame.

go ahead, make a frame with 4 abilities that cannot be explained the way you did.
I'll wait.

Cause it's about combinations of abilities that make frames appeal to people. But if you think you can invent a completely new ability that's not in any one of 50 frames, go ahead, I would love to hear it.

Also Lavos' 3 and Nova 2 don't really have anything in common

[Dichromium Trioxide]

I personally think he's fun to play, but there's isn't much of a reason to bring him to a mission. His damage output is okay at best and requires a lot of set up to pull off. His 1st ability needs a bigger base range, his 2 should cover a bigger aoe with the vials, and his 4 should actually have some aoe (it's description implies as much). Hope DE don't just abandon him and actually buff him... But that sadly won't happen, so he'll be a mediocre but fun frame for the next 4 years.

[lobstermadness]

cooldowns on all the frames and get rid of energy? goodness no.

[BurlsoL]

Messaggio originale di Acetango:

Messaggio originale di Pakaku:

An energy bar also gives you some benefits like being able to spam an ability more often

Personally I find the ability to spam somewhat detrimental to gameplay, especially with caster frames. The majority of people just use zenurik/pizzas to spam abilities, just like with banshee. Is it efficient? Sure. It's also dull gameplay wise, and falls really close to the "press x to win" philosophy.

By moving a number of frames away from the energy bar and to something cool down based, more players would be eager to do something besides spamming their 4 or other relevant ability, not to mention make other trees more viable.

If all you're doing with banshee is Soundquake... you're using her wrong. Just like Ember before the rework, may be fine for enemies below level 60, but any higher tier content needs a better strategy. Same applies to most other 'caster' frames. Yes, you can spam and beat lower level content with ease, but once you hit higher content the spam strategy stops working.