Excalibur Umbra vs Excalibur Prime ::

[Shard of Manus]

... I am a little embittered. Only a little.

Yes, their stats are identical - but those polarities, and those mods... Umbra is a direct and massive upgrade from Prime.

Of course, he requires no small Endo investment, but with my current Excalibur setup (which I copied onto my Umbra) leads to this::

NOTE :: Umbra Mods are still Rank 5, the base rank they come as - so not even upgraded yet.

- 15 less armour (Steel Fiber is Max Rank on Excal P)
- 20 less HP (Vitality is Max Rank on Excal P)
- 6% extra Ability Strength (Intensify is Max Rank on Excal P)
- 12 remaining mod slots (Excalibur Prime has 4 remaining - no Exilus Mod) - this allows for Power Drift (21% total extra Ability Strength).

Now, let's Forma them both and upgrade Excalibur Umbra's mods:

- Excalibur Umbra has 36% Extra Ability Strength.
- Excalibur Umbra has 82.5% Extra Armour (247.5 extra Armour).
- Excalibur Umbra has 330% Extra HP (330 extra HP).

This is with the exact same mod setup - only Umbra mods instead of normal mods. It's ridiculous. I know DE wanted to satisfy non-Founders, but leaving Prime in the dirt (despite buffing his armour) is kind of annoying. I usually delete obsolete frames, such as regular versions that I have Primed, because they're using up space and I'll never both using them (obviously).

... I'm not going to delete Excalibur Prime, but he now serves no purpose at all. He's better than normal Excalibur sure, but he's completely obsolete in the face of Umbra (unless you run without Vitality or Steel Fiber, which I do not). Excalibur is one of the few frames I run with all 3 'main' Warframe mods (Redirection, Vitality, Steel Fiber) because he still performs really well against 120 Corrupted Heavy Gunner's with those equipped.

Umbra leaving Prime in the dust is not how the future Umbras should be approached.

[Alexander The Wide]

Let DE think about it, they have tennocon to worry about rn, maybe they will change

[Monarch]

As a Grandmaster founder, Umbra being superior in combat / survival strength doesn't bother me.

Because from the very beginning, Excalibur Prime have been a symbol. It is a token from DE as a form of appreciation.

It wasn't given to us, so that we can actually be stronger than regular players who aren't founders. Think - Celeberative armor, a suit you wear to get medal etc. Excalibur Prime is that.
And prior to Umbra's release, it's not like Founders were adoring Excalibur Prime because of that measely higher armor than Excalibur to begin with.

Now, the community should rest on an easy balance.
Non-Founders should no longer complain, they have a physically stronger variant as compensation.
Founders shouldn't feel bad, as we too have access to Umbra. And Prime will forever still be with us, as a reminder of OUR sacrifices back in the days.

[Walrus-Sama]

This is how it should be.

The alternative would be to make Excalibur Prime the best but hard locked behind the Founder Exclusive. Makeing it an Unobtainable Pay2Win of the worse kind.

And you must remember that Excalibur Umbra is not Excalibur Prime. Umbra's are an entirely new type of frame.

[DragonNewTech]

You forgot the Prime and Umbra specials:
- Primes get those 250 energy when touching fancy orokin balls.
- Umbra starts to follow you like a dog as soon as you leave it.

[Monarch]

Originally posted by DragonNewTech:

You forgot the Prime and Umbra specials:
- Primes get those 250 energy when touching fancy orokin balls.
- Umbra starts to follow you like a dog as soon as you leave it.

Umbra also gets energy filled when getting near Orokin Death Orb.

[Homo Goboctus]

I suspect that way or another you can get to even it out for your Excalibur Prime
It could even be that more mods are coming and then its clear that you get to play two different styles, and/or umbra polarity becomes a thing

I'm just happy that I can finally build proper Excalibur, not exclusivity fan, and for now at least the fact that founder stuff exists doesnt seem to annoy me, which is nice

[Shard of Manus]

Originally posted by Stiletto Bunny♥:

Because from the very beginning, Excalibur Prime have been a symbol. It is a token from DE as a form of appreciation.

It wasn't given to us, so that we can actually be stronger than regular players who aren't founders.

100% agreed. Prime never felt more powerful, because all it had was a (as you say) measely armour bonus - but Umbra jumps a huge hurdle here by having such far reaching strengths. For sure, we all have him, but he is an aesthetic variation from the frame I've (willingly) put a fair amount of money into. Usually Fashion Frame doesn't demand a power limitation.

Originally posted by Walrus-Sama:

This is how it should be.

The alternative would be to make Excalibur Prime the best but hard locked behind the Founder Exclusive. Makeing it an Unobtainable Pay2Win of the worse kind.

No, the best alternative would be to allow Umbra Forma. Prime doesn't need to be more powerful than Umbra, in fact I'm entirely for them being the same - just so everyone has access to an Excalibur of equal strength much like all the other Primes, but for something that a great many have paid for (as that was the only way to get Excalibur Prime)... seems unfair for him to now suddenly become obsolete, at least as anything more than a (as Bunny put it) 'symbol' - now, I don't care for symbols, I don't care for strutting around with Excalibur Prime - but I do care about being forced to limit myself just to play him.

All Prime Frames can use their base skin variants, so there is literally no cause for complaint when it comes to Primes being stronger than normal Frames, and normal Frames becoming obsolete beyond that point.

Umbra cannot use the Prime Skin, which means using Prime forces a player to limit their strength - to be immediately weaker than all the others.

[Grey Star, The Rival Defender]

Excalibur Prime, thanks to not having Umbra Polairites, is more versatile in the ways he can be built and utilized. Umbra is locked into a Exalted Blade build, and requires Natural Talent in order to be useful. Prime can be modded for anything you want. For that reason alone, gameplay wise, I'd prefer using Prime. If I was given a choice between the two, gameplay wise, Prime every time.

Umbra also can fight on his own. Which, is more a curse than a useful ability by interuptting me everytime I'm Operator reviving someone. Sure, it's fun while playing solo, but it leads to this gameplay choice.
"Do I want to be useful to my team using my Operator, or play Umbra?"
Objectively speaking, the first is always better. Every time. All the time.

[Shard of Manus]

Originally posted by Grey Star, the Rival Defender:

Excalibur Prime, thanks to not having Umbra Polairites, is more versatile in the ways he can be built and utilized. Umbra is locked into a Exalted Blade build, and requires Natural Talent in order to be useful. Prime can be modded for anything you want. For that reason alone, gameplay wise, I'd prefer using Prime. If I was given a choice between the two, gameplay wise, Prime every time.

Umbra also can fight on his own. Which, is more a curse than a useful ability by interuptting me everytime I'm Operator reviving someone. Sure, it's fun while playing solo, but it leads to this gameplay choice.
"Do I want to be useful to my team using my Operator, or play Umbra?"
Objectively speaking, the first is always better. Every time. All the time.

Forma out that Umbra Intensify and you immediately get versatility with still a better Steel Fibre and Vitality. I've, thus far, found the moving Umbra to be quite useful, but that's obviously a unique and subjective experience for each player.

[Grey Star, The Rival Defender]

Originally posted by Shard of Manus:

Originally posted by Grey Star, the Rival Defender:

Excalibur Prime, thanks to not having Umbra Polairites, is more versatile in the ways he can be built and utilized. Umbra is locked into a Exalted Blade build, and requires Natural Talent in order to be useful. Prime can be modded for anything you want. For that reason alone, gameplay wise, I'd prefer using Prime. If I was given a choice between the two, gameplay wise, Prime every time.

Umbra also can fight on his own. Which, is more a curse than a useful ability by interuptting me everytime I'm Operator reviving someone. Sure, it's fun while playing solo, but it leads to this gameplay choice.
"Do I want to be useful to my team using my Operator, or play Umbra?"
Objectively speaking, the first is always better. Every time. All the time.

Forma out that Umbra Intensify and you immediately get versatility with still a better Steel Fibre and Vitality. I've, thus far, found the moving Umbra to be quite useful, but that's obviously a unique and subjective experience for each player.

Why would I ruin Umbra's polarities I can't regain in the name of versatility? I don't really care if it limits the power since I'd be in effect defacing a unique item.

[Totally Innocent Chatbot]

Originally posted by Grey Star, the Rival Defender:

Originally posted by Shard of Manus:

Forma out that Umbra Intensify and you immediately get versatility with still a better Steel Fibre and Vitality. I've, thus far, found the moving Umbra to be quite useful, but that's obviously a unique and subjective experience for each player.

Why would I ruin Umbra's polarities I can't regain in the name of versatility? I don't really care if it limits the power since I'd be in effect defacing a unique item.

For now, though in the future (especially if DE do decide to go making more Umbra frames) I predict that DE will be updating Forma to be able to apply the new Umbra polarity (or maybe adding some new variety of Forma specifically dedicated to applying Umbra polarities).

[Cavum Ink]

lets just face it, umbra is the new prime

[No_Quarter]

Originally posted by CavumWolf:

lets just face it, umbra is the new prime

I have doubts about that as DE is kinda making a lot of money from selling Prime Access

[Zeshald the Betrayed]

Don't worry, man. People will still complain that they don't have the Prime.

[RobinASP]

I honestly dont see the big deal as for power comparisson. Sure. Umbra is vastly more powerful than excalibur prime. But the primes where never really meant to be the powerhouses so to speak. Especially not excalibur prime.

Primes are more or less a upgrade yes,Not a big one but its an upgrade nontheless. But Umbra is making way to a new endgame,Especially with the new sentient outpost comming. Umbra from the getgo is meant to be powerful.

Ive seen very few founders complain about Umbra being more powerful,As everyone now has him aswell there is no big reason to complain.

Excalibur prime was meant as a token of gratitude for founders as has been explained.
Umbra shouldnt be compared as they are two completely different warframes in a sense.

Primes are meant to be elegant and royal. Umbras are meant to be ferocious and powerful.

Thats my opinion on it. I honestly dont think that DE would change anything.