Is there any DPS calculator that includes proc damage?

[Kalphite]

As the title says. I've made my own calculations and they work fine for procs that do a % of the base damage (just assuming it's 1 hit only so 6 ticks for most). However, that automatically skews the highest damage to elements that do direct damage (bleed, ignite etc), while for instance radiation also clearly increases the damage by a lot. Problem is that radiation is completely time based and thus much harder to calculate. I probably could do it but I'd have to rework the whole system I have right now, again.

So basically, has anyone else been as ridiculous as me and gone so far with their dps calculations? Can be an excel sheet or even just formulas. Ideally it would also include corrosive, magnetic and viral as well, though seeing how their effect is dependent on what enemy you're facing I'm not sure how to do that (enemy type is not something I'm factoring in).

I've checked out warframe builder btw and it does not include proc damage.

[Ratt]

If anything lives long enough to take proc damage, you've made some sort of build mistake anyway.

[No_Quarter]

Originally posted by Ratt:

If anything lives long enough to take proc damage, you've made some sort of build mistake anyway.

this is current meta summed up - if it does not go kaboom and wipe entire room in one click you are doing something wrong.

I personally do not enjoy it, promotes people not being engaged with the game and it shows on Warframe numbers as it is like the only game in the world that failed to grow during the initial wave of pandemic where everything was locked down and everyone was at home.

As for your DPS calculator, no.
I do not think you need a DPS calculator to make a good build, there is bit of trial and error with it but you get to perfect builds as you go.

Because it is not possible to calculate that with a value that applies to real world, like, Viral Proc is strong but for Corpus it's useless until you take down their shields - so how do you calculate that? You don't, you just try and see where does tradeoff between higher damage from +90% elementals and prime ones with 165% overcome the status potential from 60/60 mod.

My recent test was Rattleguns, I went with maximum critical chance and I was debating 2 choices: (got a lucky riven with CC+MS+DMG)

1) go for yellow crits, only use riven for cc increase, ditch Primed Pistol Gambit and use Primed Heated Charge for Viral+Heat, viral being made by 2 60/60 mods.

2) Go for orange crits, 130%-ish, only viral.

Outcome was that initially orange crits were slightly better but when I took a yellow crit build and replaced ONE 60/60 mod with regular +90% elemental that build was made SO MUCH better and it's actually best it can be and again - not by a close margin.

Why?

Cause now Viral has higher % of damage meaning when I do proc there is higher chance that it will be Viral.
Also 130% total CC is not reliable orange and when I deal yellow it's WAY weaker than yellow from other build where total CC is near 70% which is more than reliable.

So trick with status is to balance out status opportunities per time to status chance.
What does that mean?
Shotgun has 30 pellets, meaning you have 30 opportunities for status on each shot.
Automatic rifles do like 10 shots per second but also your multishot is taken into account so it's at around 19 opportunities for status each second. 25 if you run Vigilante Armaments.

Also, how many bullets do you expect enemy can take before they die? If your answer is 1 then you build for Corrosive as that reinforces the one shot potential, ♥♥♥♥ the status.

As for more shots - it's trial and error, I was surprised by the result of my tests but it was a repeatable outcome against high level targets in simulacrum I am confident in it.

Would me impossible to rate that with DPS cause for example - if you need 10 shots on average to kill an imaginary target - getting viral proc on the first shot makes your total DPS so much higher that you may kill target in 5 shots, or if you get unlucky with proc distribution you may need 20. It's so inconsistent if you try to make DPS work via status unless status is pretty high - but then you sacrifice your damage per shot.

Also armor stripping is not linear so that's a terrible part to pull off with math.

I never thought that theoretical DPS meant anything in Warframe and I still stick by that opinion, especially now when enemies are so overnerfed that you can build everything so wrong and basically not notice it in sortie.

[Kalphite]

Originally posted by No_Quarter:

Originally posted by Ratt:

If anything lives long enough to take proc damage, you've made some sort of build mistake anyway.

this is current meta summed up - if it does not go kaboom and wipe entire room in one click you are doing something wrong.

I personally do not enjoy it, promotes people not being engaged with the game and it shows on Warframe numbers as it is like the only game in the world that failed to grow during the initial wave of pandemic where everything was locked down and everyone was at home.

As for your DPS calculator, no.
I do not think you need a DPS calculator to make a good build, there is bit of trial and error with it but you get to perfect builds as you go.

Because it is not possible to calculate that with a value that applies to real world, like, Viral Proc is strong but for Corpus it's useless until you take down their shields - so how do you calculate that? You don't, you just try and see where does tradeoff between higher damage from +90% elementals and prime ones with 165% overcome the status potential from 60/60 mod.

My recent test was Rattleguns, I went with maximum critical chance and I was debating 2 choices: (got a lucky riven with CC+MS+DMG)

1) go for yellow crits, only use riven for cc increase, ditch Primed Pistol Gambit and use Primed Heated Charge for Viral+Heat, viral being made by 2 60/60 mods.

2) Go for orange crits, 130%-ish, only viral.

Outcome was that initially orange crits were slightly better but when I took a yellow crit build and replaced ONE 60/60 mod with regular +90% elemental that build was made SO MUCH better and it's actually best it can be and again - not by a close margin.

Why?

Cause now Viral has higher % of damage meaning when I do proc there is higher chance that it will be Viral.
Also 130% total CC is not reliable orange and when I deal yellow it's WAY weaker than yellow from other build where total CC is near 70% which is more than reliable.

So trick with status is to balance out status opportunities per time to status chance.
What does that mean?
Shotgun has 30 pellets, meaning you have 30 opportunities for status on each shot.
Automatic rifles do like 10 shots per second but also your multishot is taken into account so it's at around 19 opportunities for status each second. 25 if you run Vigilante Armaments.

Also, how many bullets do you expect enemy can take before they die? If your answer is 1 then you build for Corrosive as that reinforces the one shot potential, ♥♥♥♥ the status.

As for more shots - it's trial and error, I was surprised by the result of my tests but it was a repeatable outcome against high level targets in simulacrum I am confident in it.

Would me impossible to rate that with DPS cause for example - if you need 10 shots on average to kill an imaginary target - getting viral proc on the first shot makes your total DPS so much higher that you may kill target in 5 shots, or if you get unlucky with proc distribution you may need 20. It's so inconsistent if you try to make DPS work via status unless status is pretty high - but then you sacrifice your damage per shot.

Also armor stripping is not linear so that's a terrible part to pull off with math.

I never thought that theoretical DPS meant anything in Warframe and I still stick by that opinion, especially now when enemies are so overnerfed that you can build everything so wrong and basically not notice it in sortie.

Well at least your comment was a lot more useful than the previous one. However, I do not potato every single weapon (in fact I haven't done it at all) and weapons I'm levelling are obviously not 1 hit killing machines. I do think calculating DPS matters, weak weapons at base are unlikely to be the best with all mods maxed etc. I can easily see which weapons benefit more from elementals/crits etc too.

I take the average of longer sustained fire precisely because procs are unpredictable. Sure, it's still just an estimation but it makes it very clear which weapons are promising and which ones are not at all. For instance, I saw someone using the Jaw Sword with that 100% more damage Truth augment. Sounds promising right? Calculated it and no, even with double damage it's a relatively ♥♥♥♥♥♥ weapon (dps wise) compared to others. No augment is going to save it. And yes, I do know about the attack speed stuff.

I understand something like viral is basically impossible to calculate but radiation is relatively cut and dry, apart from the time factor.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by Kalphite:

However, I do not potato every single weapon (in fact I haven't done it at all) and weapons I'm levelling are obviously not 1 hit killing machines. I do think calculating DPS matters

It takes longer to calculate the DPS for a weak weapon with various builds to the level of detail that you seem to want than it takes to just level it in ESO or Hydron without using it and toss it. Save the effort for potentially good weapons that you intend to potato and forma to their full, eight- or nine-modded extent, unless you're doing the theorycrafting just for the fun of it rather than to make a working weapon.

Originally posted by Kalphite:

I saw someone using the Jaw Sword with that 100% more damage Truth augment. Sounds promising right? Calculated it and no, even with double damage it's a relatively ♥♥♥♥♥♥ weapon (dps wise) compared to others. No augment is going to save it. And yes, I do know about the attack speed stuff.

What you clearly don't know about is semi-exalted weapons. The following abilities use a subset of the mods on the equipped melee weapon to calculate damage, even special mods like the Jaw Sword's augment and rivens (for which the Jaw Sword's disposition is still great):

• Atlas' Landslide (his 1, his punch)
  
• Excalibur's Slash Dash (his 1, his lunge)
  
• Gara's Shattered Lash (her 1, her whip)
  
• Khora's Whipclaw (her 1, her whip)

If the Jaw Sword user was using any of those frames, that's why he had a Jaw Sword and not a melee weapon more effective in itself.

Originally posted by Kalphite:

I understand something like viral is basically impossible to calculate but radiation is relatively cut and dry, apart from the time factor.

It's the other way around. Viral procs just create a branching tree of outcomes for each given enemy, seeing it dead in some number of shots for each possible sequence of procs and non-procs from which an expected time to kill can be calculated, similar to multishot. It's not as straightforward as slash, heat, or toxin (more hits on the condition that the target lives long enough to take them), but it can be done.

Radiation procs are impossible to adequately solve in a vacuum. You don't know how many enemies will be in your weapon's AoE to potentially proc (unless your weapon has no AoE, in which case you should already know that it's a bad weapon except possibly against bosses). You don't know how many of them will, if procced, attack other enemies instead of attacking you, other player-allied things, or nothing because their AI ends up having a fit. You don't know what types of enemies they'll be, so you don't know what damage and further procs they'll apply. You can arbitrarily assume any or all of these things, but that affects the accuracy of your DPS calculation.

[Pakaku]

I do these DPS calculation spreadsheets in my spare time sometimes, and prioritize raw damage, crit damage, damage vs health types, and proc damage in that order.

Proc damage is easy to calculate since the wiki has that info, and there are only four types that deal damage. Gas isn't worth building for anymore now that it deals gas damage instead of toxin, so I ignore that, leaving slash, heat, and toxin to account for if my build has any of those.

Procs that increase damage multipliers to health/shields/armour normally isn't worth calculating for. It might be interesting to calculate the average number of hits to reach ten procs, but that's not definite like raw damage is.

Radiation proc damage is especially not worth considering because it relies on enemy DPS, which is totally out of your control. Radiation tends to be more about the chance of proccing at least once, in which case the enemy will always be 'distracted', whether one proc or ten.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by Pakaku:

Radiation proc damage is especially not worth considering because it relies on enemy DPS, which is totally out of your control. Radiation tends to be more about the chance of proccing at least once, in which case the enemy will always be 'distracted', whether one proc or ten.

Also, enemy damage is much lower than player damage, so it's more of a defensive proc like blast or impact than anything.

[Shazbot!]

Originally posted by Ratt:

Also, enemy damage is much lower than player damage

Yes, even if you get AI to shoot anything, damage done will be absolutely minimal.

[>< V ><]

I completely understand the enjoyment of analysis. I do such things as well, but this game is such a faceroll that I usually choose "lesser" weapons just to have some amount of fun killing things.

[Kalphite]

Originally posted by Ratt:

It takes longer to calculate the DPS for a weak weapon with various builds to the level of detail that you seem to want than it takes to just level it in ESO or Hydron without using it and toss it. Save the effort for potentially good weapons that you intend to potato and forma to their full, eight- or nine-modded extent, unless you're doing the theorycrafting just for the fun of it rather than to make a working weapon.

This was definitely true in the beginning but I have a working calculator right now. Only need to plug in the base stats, mod percentages and voila, I get a DPS estimation. It's mostly out of curiosity, the majority of the weapons I'm levelling these days are quite bad. Still, it's interesting (to me) to see how they compare to all the other weapons I've used so far. I may keep a 'bad' weapon if I like it, or keep a weapon I don't like if it's 'good'. If I'm ever going to use it again is another question :p.

Originally posted by Ratt:

What you clearly don't know about is semi-exalted weapons. The following abilities use a subset of the mods on the equipped melee weapon to calculate damage, even special mods like the Jaw Sword's augment and rivens (for which the Jaw Sword's disposition is still great):

• Atlas' Landslide (his 1, his punch)
  
• Excalibur's Slash Dash (his 1, his lunge)
  
• Gara's Shattered Lash (her 1, her whip)
  
• Khora's Whipclaw (her 1, her whip)

If the Jaw Sword user was using any of those frames, that's why he had a Jaw Sword and not a melee weapon more effective in itself.

Mmm, true. Excalibur was a while ago and I never really researched him. I haven't played those frames you mentioned yet either. I wasn't trying to say they were being stupid or anything, I just didn't see the point in getting that augment when I could buy it.

So I tested radiation today and you and Pakaku basically confirmed it now. I misunderstood its effect, I thought MY damage would increase lol. So yeah, definitely not worth it to invest more time on that proc.

Originally posted by Pakaku:

I do these DPS calculation spreadsheets in my spare time sometimes, and prioritize raw damage, crit damage, damage vs health types, and proc damage in that order.

Proc damage is easy to calculate since the wiki has that info, and there are only four types that deal damage. Gas isn't worth building for anymore now that it deals gas damage instead of toxin, so I ignore that, leaving slash, heat, and toxin to account for if my build has any of those.

Procs that increase damage multipliers to health/shields/armour normally isn't worth calculating for. It might be interesting to calculate the average number of hits to reach ten procs, but that's not definite like raw damage is.

Radiation proc damage is especially not worth considering because it relies on enemy DPS, which is totally out of your control. Radiation tends to be more about the chance of proccing at least once, in which case the enemy will always be 'distracted', whether one proc or ten.

Well I'm glad to see I'm not the only one :). And yeah, I definitely misunderstood radiation. Not going to bother any further with it. I don't have different health types yet as I wasn't sure if it was worth the effort. It's already a giant sheet and will become even bigger if I have to do it for different types of enemies. Do you think it's very important? I guess right now all of it is just raw damage.

Originally posted by >< V ><:

I completely understand the enjoyment of analysis. I do such things as well, but this game is such a faceroll that I usually choose "lesser" weapons just to have some amount of fun killing things.

I know! I was quite surprised when it was said above that any good weapon HAD to have AoE. So I'm just supposed to spam kuva bramma around like everyone else? What about aiming? Sometimes I play on solo just so I can take my time to actually enjoy shooting my weapons.

[Ratt]

Originally posted by Kalphite:

I know! I was quite surprised when it was said above that any good weapon HAD to have AoE. So I'm just supposed to spam kuva bramma around like everyone else? What about aiming? Sometimes I play on solo just so I can take my time to actually enjoy shooting my weapons.

If you want to take time and enjoy shooting, you can with almost any weapon. Even the tutorial weapons can be souped up enough to beat sorties, so just grab whatever feels good and mod its damage numbers up to wherever you like. What I meant by non-AoE weapons being bad wasn't that they can't be used or that they're not fun or whatever, but that they're never going to be the best available weapons, the top tier that people use when they're trying to farm efficiently (unless the target is somehow immune like eidolons are). If DE were to suddenly release an automatic rifle that fires a bazillion rounds per second with ten squillion damage, zero recoil, and infinite ammo and punch through, it still wouldn't be the best weapon in the game because you'd have to aim exactly at enemies to make them die, whereas with the likes of the Bramma, Ignis, Simulor, Regulators, Maim, Spores, and World on Fire, you don't.

[No_Quarter]

Originally posted by Ratt:

If DE were to suddenly release an automatic rifle that fires a bazillion rounds per second with ten squillion damage, zero recoil, and infinite ammo and punch through, it still wouldn't be the best weapon in the game because you'd have to aim exactly at enemies to make them die, whereas with the likes of the Bramma, Ignis, Simulor, Regulators, Maim, Spores, and World on Fire, you don't.

To no one's surprise, explosive bs meta wiped 500 weapons from the "viable" list cause even if weapon is good enemies are long dead in public match even if only one ally has that broken bs.

And DE is perfectly fine with that ecosystem where there is only one class - you either kaboom or you are mastery fodder trash.

One would think it's bad to wipe hundreds of weapons with one update but DE calls it a good update because Rivens for Bramma skyrocketed an still are up making DE tons of money from braidnead meta slaves who do not know any better than that.